Bow shots that turn into chaos

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walt133
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby walt133 » February 19th, 2018, 7:54 pm

Sherab86 wrote:Based on my theorethical knowledge, a deer hit in only one lung by an arrow certainly can travel for a long distances, or even survive and heal a wound if some major blood vessels were not touch by the way.
You are correct that a deer hit in only 1 lung can travel for quite a long distance. In this the hunter is actually quite realistic because you can sometimes track a animal for 500 meters without finding it. However, I have never heard of a deer not dying with a single lung shot and I have hunted and killed a bunch of em. That's not to say it could not happen, but I think you will find it would be extremely rare. Can a human survive with a punctured lung without getting medical attention? Highly unlikely.
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InstinctiveArcher
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby InstinctiveArcher » February 19th, 2018, 8:04 pm

I've had mixed results as far as how a deer reacts after being shot. I think that it depends largely on how excited the animal is when the shot occurs. A deer that is already nervous will already have some adrenaline in its veins and will theoretically be able to go further. A few years back I shot a doe that was calmly walking through the swamp. I shot and she jumped. Then stopped and looked back. She the took a few more steps and died. In contrast I shot a doe once that was on pins and needles with great shot placement and she went almost 200 yards. Every animal and situation is different I guess. I've dropped deer with a .243 by shooting through the shoulder blades, and this year blew up the shoulder blade on a buck with a .300 and he still ran a short ways.

I have only known one deer that survived a single lung hit. The only reason that it was confirmed was that the same guy shot the buck the next season, and it had a hole that was healed over in its lung. I've heard of several elk and moose that have recovered from one lung hits.

Here is an interesting video of a sambar that was shot with a recurve that went a very long ways even though it was a good shot. This was the world record for a while. I don't know if it still is.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_vwj-Melg8


So long as the new moon returns in heaven a bent, beautiful bow, so long will the fascination of archery keep hold of the hearts of men. - Maurice Thompson
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Sherab86
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby Sherab86 » February 20th, 2018, 5:35 am

walt133 wrote:
Sherab86 wrote:Based on my theorethical knowledge, a deer hit in only one lung by an arrow certainly can travel for a long distances, or even survive and heal a wound if some major blood vessels were not touch by the way.
You are correct that a deer hit in only 1 lung can travel for quite a long distance. In this the hunter is actually quite realistic because you can sometimes track a animal for 500 meters without finding it. However, I have never heard of a deer not dying with a single lung shot and I have hunted and killed a bunch of em. That's not to say it could not happen, but I think you will find it would be extremely rare. Can a human survive with a punctured lung without getting medical attention? Highly unlikely.


I see.
Well, this case of surviving one lung shot was coming from only one YT video, from a guy also makes and sale 3d archery models - with all organs accuratly modeled, and so on. I believe him, though he has inective to encourage to buy his products to practice good shot placement.

From what I know, arrows can be indeed quick killers because they make really clean cuts, with bleed a lot and quite long. But they do not devastate internal organs as much as rifle projectiles, so if wound by itself is not lethal (and at least one lung didn't collaps), there is a good chance the wound will heal. Based on some more-less recent resarches I did found, most of unrecovered deers shot by arrows probably survived the shot. However data on wounding rate are vary a lot. I saw one research, where only about 50% of animals were recovered, and another (more recent), where this was about 85%.

InstinctiveArcher wrote:I've had mixed results as far as how a deer reacts after being shot. I think that it depends largely on how excited the animal is when the shot occurs. A deer that is already nervous will already have some adrenaline in its veins and will theoretically be able to go further. A few years back I shot a doe that was calmly walking through the swamp. I shot and she jumped. Then stopped and looked back. She the took a few more steps and died. In contrast I shot a doe once that was on pins and needles with great shot placement and she went almost 200 yards. Every animal and situation is different I guess. I've dropped deer with a .243 by shooting through the shoulder blades, and this year blew up the shoulder blade on a buck with a .300 and he still ran a short ways.

I have only known one deer that survived a single lung hit. The only reason that it was confirmed was that the same guy shot the buck the next season, and it had a hole that was healed over in its lung. I've heard of several elk and moose that have recovered from one lung hits.


I fully agree.

This is why I would like to see some more variability in game, when it comes to animal's reactions for being hit - for more believable, more immersive feeling. But as I said, for me, this would include a need of tracking a shot animal for at least those couple of meters. I think this could be achieved by implementing two features, as I described in my thread linked earlier - this would be a treshold keeping animal alive for couple of seconds regardless of "damage" taken (I propose 10 s), and "critical hit chance" with would drop animal in it's tracks (again, regardless of weapons "damage"). Critical hit chance could be based on shot placement, weapons type (rifles vs. bows and crossbows, for example) and impact velocity. When critical hit conditions would be met, there would randomly trigger one of "allowed" drop-in-tracks animation.

And when critical hit conditions would not be met, a treshold would keep animal alive at least for those 10 seconds (but if damage attributed to weapon would not be sufficient, this of course could take longer), and one of "allowed" animations for being hit would trigger - as we have now for Sambar and Rusa, but with more variable animations. Further reactions could also be variable - how far animal will run, will it bed, or rather stand till loosing conciousness and so on.

Actualy... the time animal stays alive probably should be to some point variable too, for same amount of damage. As you mentioned, big buck in a rut, ready to fight can probably take more, than calmly grazing doe. But this is a game after all, and not everything can be simulated, and I think this would become too complex at this point.

But in general, I know... I'm a daydreamer. ;)
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SoftShoe
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby SoftShoe » February 20th, 2018, 10:20 am

Sherab86 wrote:Sorry for this. You wrote also this in linked thread:

SoftShoe wrote:There is a free radical in that not all animals will succumb to it. I will occasional shoot a deer that by some miracle runs a short distance but they are the exception not the rule.


Hence my overinterpretation.


No worries, I didn't do a very good job expressing myself. I was talking about deer that run off a distance that had no business going anywhere. I was actually thinking about a specific doe I shot with a 308 when I typed that. It was a perfect shot & postmortem showed I literally blew her heart in half & yet she ran about 40yds. Some deer are just abnormally tough.

InstinctiveArcher wrote:I've had mixed results as far as how a deer reacts after being shot. I think that it depends largely on how excited the animal is when the shot occurs. A deer that is already nervous will already have some adrenaline in its veins and will theoretically be able to go further.


I believe you hit the nail on the head here. I have my own farm way back in hills, my closest neighbor is a mile away & not much hunting goes on in my area so the deer are generally pretty relaxed when I shoot them. On the doe mentioned above I made a bonehead move & forgot to chamber a round when I got in my stand so I tried charging it quietly. I assume the bolt wasnt all the way forward becasue when I pulled the trigger just got a click. I tried it again doing it quietly with the same results. Finally I charged it like I was on the shooting range letting the bolt fly which on a M1a makes a hell of a racket! She was very alert when I shot.

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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby gas56 » February 20th, 2018, 2:40 pm

InstinctiveArcher wrote:I've had mixed results as far as how a deer reacts after being shot. I think that it depends largely on how excited the animal is when the shot occurs. A deer that is already nervous will already have some adrenaline in its veins and will theoretically be able to go further.
Here is an interesting video of a sambar that was shot with a recurve that went a very long ways even though it was a good shot. This was the world record for a while. I don't know if it still is.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_vwj-Melg8

I'm just really surprised at this film........
I see where the Buck has an arrow in it, (it did not show the actual shot) he films that than he keeps an eye on it and follows it until it finally falls over, he even said before it died that he'd seen
it 50 yards somewhere in front of him. 400 K and 4 hours later,...
I just don't get why he didn't put another arrow in it from his standpoint, as it looked liked it could hardly move at all since the time he first shot it.

Deer can be very resilent, as I once shot a buck that was down in a small stream gorge below me and though it was concealed enough that I almost passed right by it.
It was facing directly away from me and no broadside shot could be taken even at an angle without me moving and spooking the buck as it had its head turned and was
watching me. I was using a Stevens 12 ga pump in 2 3/4 Remington mag slugs and I carefully aimed with the open sights at behind its shoulders as in the spar of the moment that was the
only shot I was hoping would hit the spine and possibly go into the frontal body cavity and cause more damage. Well after the shot the deer fell instantly and kept kicking trying to get
back up on the rocks of the creek but it seemed I had hit the spine and had put it down to stay. I went to pump another round into the chamber and the gun jammed without ejecting the
fired shell,... at that time I couldn't believe my bad luck with the gun and I really didn't want to go down in such small quarters of the gorge creek and try to dispatch the deer with my
hunting knife and thhe deer seemed to have a lot of energy yet still kicking and kicking. The only thing that came to my mind was to unjam the gun with the stuck shell and since I
knew how to disassemble the gun if I got the pin out of the side of the receiver I could drop the trigger section and remove the shell, so I set down on a rock and proceeded to do it
pushing the pin with the tip of my knife blade then grabbed it with my teeth and worked it all the way out chipping a small piece of my tooth while I did it, and all the time listening to
the buck still splashing and kicking in the creek. It had probably taken me less then 5 minutes to get the gun reassembled and when I pumped a round into the chamber I was no longer
hearing the buck splashing and kicking on the rocks, and when I looked down in the gorge I couldn't see the buck anywhere. I got down to where the buck had been and found blood
on the rocks that were above water and started trying to find any blood along the banks of the creek for about 300 yards and could not find nothing,.. no tracks going up on either side
and just as if the deer had disappeared without a trace. My hunting buddy arrived around noon to pick me up for lunch and we both searched the entire area again until dusk and could
not find another blood trail even going another half of a mile up the creek and surrounding area. The creek was not deep enough anywhere to conceal the body of the deer and the banks
along it was soft from the wet weather we had, but we had found no tracks along the gorge bank. I had lost that deer, due to some bad luck with my shotgun. Since then hindsight being
20/20 I now with I would have went down there and tussled with the buck with my hunting knife. I've had done it before that to dispatch deer putting the knifeblade right through the ear
and twisting until they succumbed, and I kept thinking to myself would if I had done it that way? That was the 1st deer I had never recovered, as it slipped away after taking such a devasting
blow and escape was embedded in its mind no matter what or how it ended up.
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Sherab86
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby Sherab86 » February 20th, 2018, 3:03 pm

gas56 wrote:
InstinctiveArcher wrote:I've had mixed results as far as how a deer reacts after being shot. I think that it depends largely on how excited the animal is when the shot occurs. A deer that is already nervous will already have some adrenaline in its veins and will theoretically be able to go further.
Here is an interesting video of a sambar that was shot with a recurve that went a very long ways even though it was a good shot. This was the world record for a while. I don't know if it still is.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_vwj-Melg8

I'm just really surprised at this film........
I see where the Buck has an arrow in it, (it did not show the actual shot) he films that than he keeps an eye on it and follows it until it finally falls over, he even said before it died that he'd seen
it 50 yards somewhere in front of him. 400 K and 4 hours later,...
I just don't get why he didn't put another arrow in it from his standpoint, as it looked liked it could hardly move at all since the time he first shot it.


This was my first thought too, to be honest.
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SoftShoe
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby SoftShoe » February 20th, 2018, 3:03 pm

gas56 wrote:It was facing directly away from me and no broadside shot could be taken even at an angle without me moving and spooking the buck as it had its head turned and was
watching me.


You coulda put the slug right up the exhaust. Down San Antone way they call that a Texas heart shot... :lol:

I feel ya though, I think anyone who has been hunting for any length of time has one get away & we always regret them.

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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby InstinctiveArcher » February 20th, 2018, 3:17 pm

Sherab86 wrote:
gas56 wrote:
InstinctiveArcher wrote:I've had mixed results as far as how a deer reacts after being shot. I think that it depends largely on how excited the animal is when the shot occurs. A deer that is already nervous will already have some adrenaline in its veins and will theoretically be able to go further.
Here is an interesting video of a sambar that was shot with a recurve that went a very long ways even though it was a good shot. This was the world record for a while. I don't know if it still is.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_vwj-Melg8

I'm just really surprised at this film........
I see where the Buck has an arrow in it, (it did not show the actual shot) he films that than he keeps an eye on it and follows it until it finally falls over, he even said before it died that he'd seen
it 50 yards somewhere in front of him. 400 K and 4 hours later,...
I just don't get why he didn't put another arrow in it from his standpoint, as it looked liked it could hardly move at all since the time he first shot it.


This was my first thought too, to be honest.

50 yards is quite a poke with a recurve. I don't know why he didn't shoot it again. It looked pretty thick. Maybe he just never Could get a good shot. With the amount of blood that deer was losing, I would almost just let him bleed out like he is as opposed to winging another one and risk making a bad shot and sending him running again.


So long as the new moon returns in heaven a bent, beautiful bow, so long will the fascination of archery keep hold of the hearts of men. - Maurice Thompson
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby gas56 » February 20th, 2018, 3:29 pm

InstinctiveArcher wrote:
Sherab86 wrote:
gas56 wrote:I'm just really surprised at this film........
I see where the Buck has an arrow in it, (it did not show the actual shot) he films that than he keeps an eye on it and follows it until it finally falls over, he even said before it died that he'd seen
it 50 yards somewhere in front of him. 400 K and 4 hours later,...
I just don't get why he didn't put another arrow in it from his standpoint, as it looked liked it could hardly move at all since the time he first shot it.


This was my first thought too, to be honest.

50 yards is quite a poke with a recurve. I don't know why he didn't shoot it again. It looked pretty thick. Maybe he just never Could get a good shot. With the amount of blood that deer was losing, I would almost just let him bleed out like he is as opposed to winging another one and risk making a bad shot and sending him running again.


It looked to me that the deer could hardly walk let alone run,...
you do know how some youtube videos want all the drama & excitement that comes along with it.... :lol:
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby gas56 » February 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm

SoftShoe wrote:
gas56 wrote:It was facing directly away from me and no broadside shot could be taken even at an angle without me moving and spooking the buck as it had its head turned and was
watching me.


You coulda put the slug right up the exhaust. Down San Antone way they call that a Texas heart shot... :lol:

I feel ya though, I think anyone who has been hunting for any length of time has one get away & we always regret them.


If I could of put it up the exhaust pipe I would have, but I was too high and it was too low and if I would have done that with the angle of the shot it would have put the slug right out the bottom of its pee hole.
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