Bow shots that turn into chaos

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gas56
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Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby gas56 » February 18th, 2018, 6:36 pm

Have you ever had an animal run 150-200+ meters after shooting it in the ribcage with a Compound Bow?
I have had several Sambar shot today where I thought I had a good hit but they ran off, and after inspecting the blood trails which usually said heart/lung shots that actually turned
into a fleeing track after the first 4-5 blood trails, then turn into intestine, body, 1 lung, shoulder, or whatever else you can think of in the rib area, besides the heart.
Even after turning into an intestine shot when I collected the animal the lung and the stomach was hit, not even close to an intestine shot with a hit broadside on the Deer in the
ribcage and I can't figure out how the game even considered it to be an intestine shot?
I have never seen deer run as far as they do IRL as they make them run too far in the game with a good hit, because usually if you don't chase deer they don't go far and lay down after the shot.
This is one thing I would like to see get changed in the game and not have so much emphasis on recovering animals especially with animals that don't act normally like they should.
Every Bateng I shot in the ribcage with the bow dropped them more easily than the Sambar deer did on the hunt, which makes it very unbelievable for a hunting game.
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby Fletchette » February 18th, 2018, 6:56 pm

I can only recall the blood trail reporting heart/lung, intestine, and body. So the blood trails consider all organs except cardio pulmonary (heart/lung) to be intestine. Which is fine IMO, since liver, stomach, intestines, etc., are all digestion related. IRL and in good light you can tell from color whether the blood is from heart/lung vs. some other organ or location, but not really which organ.

As far as running 150-200+ meters after being shot....Sure, many times both with rifle and bow, and even if the hit got lungs or heart. I think the consensus is that how far a deer runs, if it doesn't drop from impact shock, is very much determined by how much it was alerted before being hit, and how much adrenaline got into it's blood stream. Meaning they can be almost dead, but still running if they're running on adrenaline. How far they run can also be determined by terrain, and how far they have to go to find good cover to lie down and die. I've seem them go 50m, and crawl into a bush, and I've seen them run hundreds of meters and drop while running.
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby gas56 » February 18th, 2018, 9:09 pm

Fletchette wrote:I can only recall the blood trail reporting heart/lung, intestine, and body. So the blood trails consider all organs except cardio pulmonary (heart/lung) to be intestine. Which is fine IMO, since liver, stomach, intestines, etc., are all digestion related. IRL and in good light you can tell from color whether the blood is from heart/lung vs. some other organ or location, but not really which organ.

Well if your close enough to see where the arrow hit in the front region of the ribs on a direct broadside hit it cannot be an intestine shot,.. wouldn't you agree on this?

As far as running 150-200+ meters after being shot....Sure, many times both with rifle and bow, and even if the hit got lungs or heart. I think the consensus is that how far a deer runs, if it doesn't drop from impact shock, is very much determined by how much it was alerted before being hit, and how much adrenaline got into it's blood stream. Meaning they can be almost dead, but still running if they're running on adrenaline. How far they run can also be determined by terrain, and how far they have to go to find good cover to lie down and die. I've seem them go 50m, and crawl into a bush, and I've seen them run hundreds of meters and drop while running.


Sure,... an animal in a spooked state already, can and will run a distance with adrenaline pumping in the case of mostly Big Elk.. if not hit in a relative heart stopping good shot even with just an adequate firearm. I'm talking about medium deer that are hit with a close bowshot in the relative kill zone of the frontal ribcage that are good hits,...
again,... sure they can run, but in most cases they are going down after 50-100 yards with that being the main pulmonary & heart pumping station. If a leg or shoulder bone is hit, than
yeah, they will go until you put them down for good with a second shot if you can get it. And I've seen deer like you say that they run even heart, or lung hit, but they never go a half a mile or more, but in the game it seems to be too long, I'm actually guessing about how far it is when I say 150-200 plus meters, but it could be a lot further, I haven't actually measured it. Not like the game portrays a good shot starts out a heart lung shot, then goes into a fleeing shot, then a intestine shot, and then dies some few hundred meters (not yards) away,.. then when the animal is examined it was actually a 1 lung shot and hitting the stomach & shoulder, from a broadside shot which makes no sense from a perpendicular perspective that in no way is it possible from a straight broadside shot with an animal standing still. How can two different organs be hit that line up one after the other from front to rear on that angle (a perpendicular 90degree shot).
This just proves that hit-boxes are mis-calculated in the game on some animal shots or how a scull & lower body organ are hit with a broadside single shot sometimes.
This is what I'm talking about in the game as being over emphasized at recovering a good shot animal, the end point of collecting the harvest reveals where it was hit,
which shows the placement of the broadhead was on target and shows you the results of the hit.
It's kinda like the new Sambar & Rusa animation where after you hit them they fall and get up again,.. it is all about game presentation, and it's for our benefit of the game
than if it's a good hit they should sometimes kick around then die, but not always. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about in the field.
And there could be a lot more animations of how animals kill over, even if this is just a game without all the bloody mess.
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby TheSheWolf » February 18th, 2018, 9:47 pm

I think it depends on the weapon, too. With a Heavy Recurve I have something like 900 kills and a single-lung shot on a whitetail doe, well, she'll go maybe 100 yards and drop. I am trying out the Parker Python and while I LOVE the sights, range and how quiet it is, I've noticed that single-lung shots can run quite a way. I had one yesterday go 300+ yards! The sambar deer by comparison are absolute tanks. Even rifle lungshots can run really far unless you take both and for some reason they're pretty hard to penetrate. Compared to elk they're hard to take down, imo.

If you are talking vs IRL, I can't at all compare, but in-game there's variation based on species and weapon. To summarize and answer your question: yes, it happens, based on a few different factors.
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby Sherab86 » February 19th, 2018, 3:13 am

In-game terms, based on my observations, it is mostly about weapon's damage model vs. speciffic animal. I don't have any bow, but since recently I have a crossbow. And while I find arrows/bolts quite deadly in long term - even intestine shots ends in animal's death (I haven't hunt all allowed species, yet, but it goes for as big animals as brown bears and red deers at least). But I guess, that this is mostly due to damage-over-time effect. In contrary, I suppose that instant hit-damage can be relatively low, hence after only one lung, or intestine shot, there is quite long blood-trail to go. ;)

I'm not a RL hunter, so it is hard for me to compare to reality. But after what I've read or saw in internet, 100-200 meters blood-trail is not that unreallistic. It seems that bow-hunting relies as much on bleeding effect (drop of blood pressure), as on lungs collapsing. And I saw some hunters on You Tube claiming, that single lung shot with a bow is not very reliable. One of them (hunters) made such a bad shot once, and then he found same animal few mounth later (if I recall correclty - maybe less, but this was bow vs. rifle period, so to speak) with an arrow still sticking out from it's chest. This was a whitetail, if I remember correctly. So I guess, that if only one lung have been penetrated, then blood-trail can be quite long IRL too - if animal will die at all. It seems, that besides it's large dimmensions, arrows do not cause as extensive bleeding (?) as rifle projectiles (and obviously they travel much slower, so there is limited chance for "shock" effect of an accoustic wave of a projectile passing through a body), hence have to rely more on cease of transpiration due to lungs collapsing - but if one lung is still fine and runnig, this might be not enough to brain's oxygen starvation and quick incapacitation. ;)


In-game, when it comes to shot placement, and strange results - that's a different story. ;) I'm surpriesed quite often, how my shots into qurtering-in animal can end-up as for example: right lung, guts (but no stomach or liver) and guess what - left lung. It seems I dispose some "intelligent" projectiles - traveling it's own, designed path inside animal. ;)

gas56 wrote:...than if it's a good hit they should sometimes kick around then die, but not always. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about in the field.
And there could be a lot more animations of how animals kill over, even if this is just a game without all the bloody mess.


I agree. And just as curiousity:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ball ... study.html

So it seems, that instant incapacitation chance (abstracting from the cause), with the use of rifles, and good shot placement (chest area) is slightly bigger than 50% for whitetail's size animals, almost regardless of caliber used (however there was no big magnum cartridges in the research, and I suppose that projectile's velocity within animal's body may have some meaning).
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby Fletchette » February 19th, 2018, 6:23 am

Sherab86 wrote:And just as curiousity:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ball ... study.html

So it seems, that instant incapacitation chance (abstracting from the cause), with the use of rifles, and good shot placement (chest area) is slightly bigger than 50% for whitetail's size animals, almost regardless of caliber used (however there was no big magnum cartridges in the research, and I suppose that projectile's velocity within animal's body may have some meaning).

Interesting study, but I'll note a few things...

1. South Carolina whitetail are on average physically smaller than whitetail in more northern states and Canada. Not as small as the ones even further south like Florida, Texas, etc., but still small compared to the Midwest, North, and Western states, and Canada. I read on the South Carolina DNR website that the average mature buck is around 175 lbs, and does are around 120. Here in Missouri, and Iowa, mature bucks average over 200 lbs, with mature does averaging around 150. The further north, the heavier they get, and size matters.

2. Almost half the deer shot in the study were does.

3. The noted terrain was swamp and heavy brush, shot from elevated stands, so the shot distance was probably short on average. So close range, but this is a guess because I didn't see average shot distance stated.

4. It's surprising what a high percentage of the shots were spine and through the shoulder. This is probably because this was a large scale cull, where numbers mattered, rather than sport hunting. I believe most hunters, myself included, intentionally DO NOT aim for spine or shoot through the shoulder. This is because we intend to harvest meat, and shoulder damage ruins to much of some meatier areas on a whitetail. Spine shots risk damage to the back straps and tenderloins, which is the BEST meat on any deer. Because of the preference to avoid meat damage, we usually aim lower and behind the shoulder, going for lung hits. This results in less major bone damage, and less nervous system "shock".

I mention these things because the instant drops reported are significantly higher than I've experienced, and anyone I've ever hunted with. And this is despite the fact they we usually hunt with even more powerful rifles than those reported in the study, usually .270, 30-06, .300 WM, etc.. Also the distances run are far shorter, which is probably due to the much denser terrain of the swamps and brush of South Carolina.
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby Sherab86 » February 19th, 2018, 6:49 am

Fletchette wrote:
Sherab86 wrote:And just as curiousity:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ball ... study.html

So it seems, that instant incapacitation chance (abstracting from the cause), with the use of rifles, and good shot placement (chest area) is slightly bigger than 50% for whitetail's size animals, almost regardless of caliber used (however there was no big magnum cartridges in the research, and I suppose that projectile's velocity within animal's body may have some meaning).

Interesting study, but I'll note a few things...

1. South Carolina whitetail are on average physically smaller than whitetail in more northern states and Canada. Not as small as the ones even further south like Florida, Texas, etc., but still small compared to the Midwest, North, and Western states, and Canada. I read on the South Carolina DNR website that the average mature buck is around 175 lbs, and does are around 120. Here in Missouri, and Iowa, mature bucks average over 200 lbs, with mature does averaging around 150. The further north, the heavier they get, and size matters.

2. Almost half the deer shot in the study were does.

3. The noted terrain was swamp and heavy brush, shot from elevated stands, so the shot distance was probably short on average. So close range, but this is a guess because I didn't see average shot distance stated.

4. It's surprising what a high percentage of the shots were spine and through the shoulder. This is probably because this was a large scale cull, where numbers mattered, rather than sport hunting. I believe most hunters, myself included, intentionally DO NOT aim for spine or shoot through the shoulder. This is because we intend to harvest meat, and shoulder damage ruins to much of some meatier areas on a whitetail. Spine shots risk damage to the back straps and tenderloins, which is the BEST meat on any deer. Because of the preference to avoid meat damage, we usually aim lower and behind the shoulder, going for lung hits. This results in less major bone damage, and less nervous system "shock".

I mention these things because the instant drops reported are significantly higher than I've experienced, and anyone I've ever hunted with. And this is despite the fact they we usually hunt with even more powerful rifles than those reported in the study, usually .270, 30-06, .300 WM, etc.. Also the distances run are far shorter, which is probably due to the much denser terrain of the swamps and brush of South Carolina.



All good points. :)

Thanks for your insight. :)

I had quite long discussion with SofShoe about this subject in this thread (I link to the place actual debate started):
viewtopic.php?f=167&t=84827#p916898

If I recall correctly, SoftShoes experiences are quite opposite - for him instant incapacitation is rather a norm with a 180 gr. SP .300 WM.

But, well, to be honest over 50% always looked for me as quite high number. After what you wrote, for more avarage sized deers, mostly for bucks in rut, this numbers probably should be somwhat smaller (maybe 30% for bucks ?).

Anyway, this is in no way simulated in the game. Every "good" shot (double lung, heart or multiple organs), by a enough "powerful" rifle ends-up with instant drop. And I suppose this is what most players wants (in opposition to me :P ).
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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby gas56 » February 19th, 2018, 2:17 pm

How we got off into guns is another matter of topic of Bow shots.
Deer will run if they can when shot with a bow,.. I mean how many instant drops while bowhunting happens, it's slim.
Most deer after arrow hit will flee to the point of having blood lost and will effect their capacity to respond, and will lay down at that convenient time no matter where it is,
they don't look for a hiding place (unless it wasn't a devastating hit) they are just trying to evade the predator as they've done for thousands of years.
I've seen deer run after the shot and after 50 yards run right into a bush and tumble down, kicking still trying as if they are trying to escape the inevitable body shutting down then
take their last breath. I've also seen deer run after the shot then loose sight of them, wait an hour or sometimes more, then find them just 100 yards away in the brush.
I've also seen deer run after the shot that's been bad hit that will go a half a mile then lay down if not pursued right away, which is a standard procedure for bowhunting to give them
time to expire as you don't want them to run any further. And I live in NE Ohio and the deer get big bodied here so they very well live up to being the big standard northern whitetails
and you could say no less of the N Carolina deer in which they may be similar but in size.
All I was saying was that some bowshots in the game on Sambar deer have been having a lot of adverse reactions to fleeing and that even with double organs hit in the end results
that they tend to not settle down and have a lengthly recovery which gets to be old and boring and frustrating which I referred to as Chaos. It's either they drop on the spot, or flee a marathon.
I would like to see deer in the game have different animations after the shot,.. and spice up the game for added amazement at how animals do not act all the same after
the shot.

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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby SoftShoe » February 19th, 2018, 4:03 pm

gas56 wrote:Have you ever had an animal run 150-200+ meters after shooting it in the ribcage with a Compound Bow?


I've made a couple posts about this with bows as it irritates me as well! Really doesnt matter the bow type because I have had it happen with the Longbow as well as compounds. Well hit deer wont travel that far, not even with a single lung hit and the type of bleeding wont change as you are tracking them.

I once shot a nice buck with my longbow, he was angling away at about 30deg & about 20yds away. It was getting onto dusk & was the last day I was going to be able to get out in that season so I decided to take a shot I would normally pass on. The buck was slowly walking when I released. As the arrow was in flight he turned even more to my right making it about 15deg angle towards me & I saw the arrow disappear just ahead of the hip. When hit he hunched up like it he was gut shot & lit out of there. Cursing myself for a bad hit I waited 30min to let him hopefully lie down. By now it was full on dark. I get to the last spot I saw him standing & with my flashlight found some cut hair & the greasy looking bile of a gut hit. I cursed myself for taking the shot figuring I had a long tracking session ahead of me because gut hit deer generally dont bleed/leak bile a whole lot & I most likely wasnt going to find him anyway. It had been a dry summer & the ground was very hard so seeing tracks was all but out so I started walking in the direction I saw him run. I saw one other spattering of bile then after about 30yds found a blood trail that almost looked like someone was pouring it from a jug as they walked. I found the deer about 50yds past that. The arrow was not visible on the carcass.
I open him up & find my arrow lodged inside him. It entered just ahead of the hip, passed through all the guts & the right lung wedging in the right shoulder. His belly was FULL of blood! I didnt/couldn't look closely because of the light but assume it took an artery or 2 along the way. What I believe happened was there was the initial bile from the depressurization of the stomach when the arrow struck it. The intial "pop" for lack of a better word. Then some more bile as he ran & it jiggled out & finally when the body cavity filled up with enough blood the it reached the entry wound it started pouring out. From where the arrow struck him till dead was just over 100yds.

Sherab86 wrote:
If I recall correctly, SoftShoes experiences are quite opposite - for him instant incapacitation is rather a norm with a 180 gr. SP .300 WM.


I wouldnt say the norm but common. I read the study you cited & would say my experience is very similar as theirs. Probably hovering around 50% of the time deer shot by my 300WM drop right there or close enough to right there as to not make a difference. The other 1/2 the time they run a very short distance, typically less then 30yds.

I did find it interesting he mentions the 1 in 4 that took off like they werent hit. Those of the tough ones I am talking about in the other thread. From my experience it wasnt 1 in 4, more like 1 in 10 but there are deer that trot off literally already dead, they just dont know it yet.

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Re: Bow shots that turn into chaos

Postby Sherab86 » February 19th, 2018, 6:11 pm

Well, as I said, I don't have RL experience, and I don't mean to claim otherwise. I reffer only to what I've read or saw - both - scientific or semi-scientific sources, and field experiences of hunters, policemen, people being shot, and so on. And my conclusion was, that bows definitely need more care for good shot placement, than firearms projectiles. And single lung wounds can be simply not enough. But I don't say, they can't be enough. ;)

SoftShoe wrote:
Sherab86 wrote:
If I recall correctly, SoftShoes experiences are quite opposite - for him instant incapacitation is rather a norm with a 180 gr. SP .300 WM.


I wouldnt say the norm but common. I read the study you cited & would say my experience is very similar as theirs. Probably hovering around 50% of the time deer shot by my 300WM drop right there or close enough to right there as to not make a difference. The other 1/2 the time they run a very short distance, typically less then 30yds.


Sorry for this. You wrote also this in linked thread:

SoftShoe wrote:There is a free radical in that not all animals will succumb to it. I will occasional shoot a deer that by some miracle runs a short distance but they are the exception not the rule.


Hence my overinterpretation.


Now, I refered to rifles only as a curiousity, in conjuction with variabilty in "hit" effects that could be implemented into the game, but are not. And I don't know any research on bow hunting. This is rather difficult to find something reliable on rifles too, actualy.


But sorry for this slight off-topic, Gas. But for me the subject is not limited only to bows simply. Btw. - in-game Sambar is a whole separate story by it alone. ;) I don't think it is good example as such for entire game. ;)

But in general, I would really appreciate more variable animations, and "hit" effects for rifles too, not only for bows. For me, this include to not drop down after every "good" shot, as it is in reality. Drop on spots could vary too. Sometimes animal's could drop just like that, and sometimes kick the ground for a while (nothing excesive - something similar to turkey's animations for example). Another time flee for couple of meters, and so on.

I'm aware, however, that most players don't like to track wounded animals in the game, so I'm in the minority. ;P

And when it comes to "theorethical background", so to speak, I guess we mostly dissagree on the amount of time (hence distance traveled) wounded animal (IRL) can stay concious after differently placed shots (amount of penetration included). Based on my theorethical knowledge, a deer hit in only one lung by an arrow certainly can travel for a long distances, or even survive and heal a wound if some major blood vessels were not touch by the way. But, due to my solely theorethical background, I can of course be completely wrong. And if I would be presented with undeniable evidances, I would have no other choice, as accept them. ;) But I think this would have to be a testimony of much more, than two, three hunters, to make this statisticaly valid. :P

Anyway,
Good virtual hunting!
:)

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