Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

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Fletchette
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by Fletchette »

Now I'm really confused.....This video you linked goes to great length to explain they are different terms for the exact same thing.
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by Sulfurblade »

caledonianblues wrote:
That video just confirms exactly what Fletchette and I said :?

Click here to jump to 5:51 to hear him say exactly what we said in our posts.
I will admit he supports your opinion to an extent but he is looking at this from a layman's perspective...

The suppressor is a superior design over a silencer... They have scientifically different principles hence why Maxim's patent design that traps muzzle gas and releases it after it dissipates in almost the exact same way some muzzle brakes work. Is a Silencer....

Suppressors don't trap the Muzzle gas they dissipate the gas thru a controlled release. They are scientifically different.
Silencers = Loss of Velocity to an almost subsonic level and can elimate the balistic crack see example VSS Vintorez...
Suppressors don't attempt to lower Muzzle Velocity though they do have some effect on it but not as much as a silencer. The bullet will still often have a ballistic crack, because again they operate differently one traps the gas the other spreads the gas out and releases it in a controlled way....

The Larger the gun the less viable a Maxim type Silencer is, the US Military tried for years to figure out a way to use the principle of a Silencer on large sniper rifles and it didn't work, what did work was Suppressors! Suppressors work differently then silencer the emergence of the suppressor as the superior (Silencer) for Snipers was thru many years of trial and error trying to get a Maxim style Silencer to work but the fact is you cannot trap the muzzle gas on a large caliber weapon and not avoid huge balistic energy falloff the Suppressor doesn't have this issue.....

"Look at like the difference between a Radial, V and Straight Engine" They are all engines giving the vehicle mechanical power but each works in a scientifically different way. That is the difference here, Vee Engines for instance are typically seen on 6 cylinders or more engines because while they add more power efficiently they do add an added chance for maintenance as an inline 4 cylinder engine is less prone to mechanical failure.... Why don't we see straight 6 and 8's as commonly because they use too much gas unlike the Vee configuration counterpart.....

The difference between a Silencer and a Suppressor are very much the same as an engine with a different alignment like a Vee compared to a straight block....
Last edited by Sulfurblade on February 20th, 2019, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by caledonianblues »

I can't find a single piece of documentation that confirms what you're saying. I've spent the last hour reading up and watching videos. The term "silencer", as Fletchette mentioned above, is what the device was originally called when it was invented and patented. So technically that is the correct term for the device. But I can't see any evidence of a suppressor being a different bit of kit, with different characteristics. If you can provide something concrete though, that would certainly solidify your argument. Something official though. Not videos containing opinions.
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by Fletchette »

Sulfurblade wrote:
caledonianblues wrote:
That video just confirms exactly what Fletchette and I said :?

Click here to jump to 5:51 to hear him say exactly what we said in our posts.
I will admit he supports your opinion to an extent but he is looking at this from a layman's perspective...

The suppressor is a superior design over a silencer... They have scientifically different principles hence why Maxim's patent design that traps muzzle gas and releases it after it dissipates in almost the exact same way some muzzle brakes work. Is a Silencer....

Suppressors don't trap the Muzzle gas they dissipate the gas thru a controlled release. They are scientifically different.
Silencers = Loss of Velocity to an almost subsonic level and can elimate the balistic crack see example VSS Vintorez...
Suppressors don't attempt to lower Muzzle Velocity though they do have some effect on it but not as much as a silencer. The bullet will still often have a ballistic crack, because again they operate differently one traps the gas the other spreads the gas out and releases it in a controlled way....

The Larger the gun the less viable a Maxim type Silencer is, the US Military tried for years to figure out a way to use the principle of a Silencer on large sniper rifles and it didn't work, what did work was Suppressors! Suppressors work differently then silencer the emergence of the suppressor as the superior (Silencer) for Snipers was thru many years of trial and error trying to get a Maxim style Silencer to work but the fact is you cannot trap the muzzle gas on a large caliber weapon and not avoid huge balistic energy falloff the Suppressor doesn't have this issue.....

"Look at like the difference between a Radial, V and Straight Engine" They are all engines giving the vehicle mechanical power but each works in a scientifically different way. That is the difference here, Vee Engines for instance are typically seen on 6 cylinders or more engines because while they add more power efficiently they do add an added chance for maintenance as an inline 4 cylinder engine is less prone to mechanical failure.... Why don't we see straight 6 and 8's as commonly because they use too much gas unlike the Vee configuration counterpart.....

The difference between a Silencer and a Suppressor are very much the same as an engine with a different alignment like a Vee compared to a straight block....
There are a large number of different designs for silencers/suppressors that use different engineering to accomplish the goal of reducing the report. It doesn't matter, they are all classified as the same thing. I thought you linked it yourself, but here is a link to the ATF (Federal definition) of a silencer/muffler (AKA suppressor).

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-g ... n-silencer

As you can clearly see, it makes no distinction of HOW it's done (gas trapping vs gas dissipation or whatever), only that it reduces the report.

Point being, it doesn't matter what you call it, or how it works, or who makes it. They are legal in most states, but you are currently required to obtain a Federal Registration to buy/own one that costs $200. This is regardless of the underlying technology.

The purpose of the proposed legislation is to eliminate the separate Federal regulation and registration of the devices and the $200 fee.
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by Sulfurblade »

caledonianblues wrote:I can't find a single piece of documentation that confirms what you're saying. I've spent the last hour reading up and watching videos. The term "silencer", as Fletchette mentioned above, is what the device was originally called when it was invented and patented. So technically that is the correct term for the device. But I can't see any evidence of a suppressor being a different bit of kit, with different characteristics. If you can provide something concrete though, that would certainly solidify your argument. Something official though. Not videos containing opinions.
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-con ... ochure.pdf

Here you go, From Maxim himself explaining how he traps the muzzle gas and releases said gas after it cools...

What Maxim doesn't state is that it has an adverse effect on muzzle velocity!
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by caledonianblues »

Alright I'm going to bow out now since we don't seem to be getting anywhere. The PDF you provided is a detailed summary of the silencer, how it works, how it attaches to various different calibre barrels, how much it reduces noise, etc. Can you point to the page/paragraph/section that mentions the fact that there's a difference between a silencer and a suppressor? The word "suppressor" doesn't even exist in that document.

Your have no argument without evidence. I believe no evidence exists because they're the same thing.
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by BuiuRei »

Lets call it muffler and make it obligatory.
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by Sulfurblade »

BuiuRei wrote:Lets call it muffler and make it obligatory.
Here in is the problem!

Definition's

Suppressor = an Attachment to Hide Muzzle flash

Silencer = an Attachment to Silence Noise

Muzzle Brake = an Attachment to compensate for recoil

^^^^ All three are different but yet often will accomplish things the other does!!!

The American Suppressor Association formerly The American Silencer Association has lobbied for years to make Silencers, now "Suppressors" Legal....
But now Suppressors are legal because the protect hearing loss?!?

The fact is the Suppressors have the most military application and have had the most R&D to make them a superior Suppressor / Silencer / and Muzzle Brake.
They don't completely trap muzzle gas and release after it cools, they often times redirect it and disperse it even before it cools, they can even in some cases use said gas to act as a muzzle boost and use it to propel the bullet faster even while lowering the sound output and the recoil..... Suppressors have been far more successful then Silencers and the military hasn't been able to create the silent sniper rifle via Maxims design yet! Every Military Sniper uses a Suppressor because it still acts as a silencer.....

Milatary Silenced weapons almost always are subsonic like the VSS Vintorez and you wouldn't want to use that weapon to go deer hunting with, doc would have a heart attack!!!
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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by Hawkeye »

Sulfurblade wrote:
BuiuRei wrote:Lets call it muffler and make it obligatory.
Here in is the problem!

Definition's

Suppressor = an Attachment to Hide Muzzle flash

Silencer = an Attachment to Silence Noise

Muzzle Brake = an Attachment to compensate for recoil

^^^^ All three are different but yet often will accomplish things the other does!!!

The American Suppressor Association formerly The American Silencer Association has lobbied for years to make Silencers, now "Suppressors" Legal....
But now Suppressors are legal because the protect hearing loss?!?

The fact is the Suppressors have the most military application and have had the most R&D to make them a superior Suppressor / Silencer / and Muzzle Brake.
They don't completely trap muzzle gas and release after it cools, they often times redirect it and disperse it even before it cools, they can even in some cases use said gas to act as a muzzle boost and use it to propel the bullet faster even while lowering the sound output and the recoil..... Suppressors have been far more successful then Silencers and the military hasn't been able to create the silent sniper rifle via Maxims design yet! Every Military Sniper uses a Suppressor because it still acts as a silencer.....

Milatary Silenced weapons almost always are subsonic like the VSS Vintorez and you wouldn't want to use that weapon to go deer hunting with, doc would have a heart attack!!!

Around here, we just call them "cans".

American Hunter has a good article about their usage here

It states: "Thanks to the NRA, the American Suppressor Association (ASA) and politically active folks like you, suppressors—also called silencers—can now be used in 40 states for hunting. That’s terrific news, because suppressors mitigate a rifle’s report to decibel thresholds deemed safe by OSHA."

Note that they also refer to the #1 as an "integrally suppressed barrel", refer to Silencers by Q as "one of the newest suppressor companies", the Gemtech GM-45 as an "inert display suppressor", and on & on.

There are more, such as Suppressors and Predator Hunting, Hunting with Suppressors, Can I Hunt Deer With Suppressors, 3 Suppressors for Hunting. I think your "Suppressors are illegal for hunting" argument is put to rest here. In the context of legality, suppressors = silencers.

This confirms my statements that 1) they are legal in 40 states, 2) they reduce the sound enough to be deemed safe without ear protection, and 3) confirms that the terminology is used interchangeably.

Also note the Harvester silencer/suppressor sold by SilencerCo here. The Harvester is their #1 selling hunting silencer. In the manual, it states the following:

"WE AT SILENCERCO® HOPE THAT YOU ENJOY THE TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENTS OFFERED BY THE HARVESTER (TM) SOUND SUPPRESSOR. TO PROVIDE FOR YOUR SAFETY AND THE EFFECTIVE USE OF THIS SUPPRESSOR, IT IS CRITICAL THAT THE OWNER AND ANY USER OF THE SUPPRESSOR READ THIS ENTIRE MANUAL AND FOLLOW STRICTLY THE WARNINGS AND INSTRUCTIONS WITHIN. THIS SUPPRESSOR IS INTENDED TO BE USED ONLY BY THOSE WHO ARE WELL-VERSED IN THE SAFE OPERATION OF FIREARMS."

So, a company named SILENCERCO makes the Harvester Silencer, listed under "Silencers" on their website, yet in the opening paragraph of their own user manual, they refer to this "Silencer", as a "Suppressor" no less than 4 times.

The bottom line is that my initial response was correct and my terminology was accurate. Suppressors, such as the Harvester sold by SilencerCo, are clearly designed for hunting use and are legal to hunt with. You are confusing Flash Suppressors with Suppressors. Those are completely different items, but even still, flash suppressors are legal to hunt with in some states.

The below map shows where silencers/suppressors can legally be used in hunting.

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Re: Silencer, Good Idea or Bad

Post by Fletchette »

Sulfurblade wrote:
BuiuRei wrote:Lets call it muffler and make it obligatory.
Here in is the problem!

Definition's

Suppressor = an Attachment to Hide Muzzle flash

Silencer = an Attachment to Silence Noise

Muzzle Brake = an Attachment to compensate for recoil

^^^^ All three are different but yet often will accomplish things the other does!!!

The American Suppressor Association formerly The American Silencer Association has lobbied for years to make Silencers, now "Suppressors" Legal....
But now Suppressors are legal because the protect hearing loss?!?

The fact is the Suppressors have the most military application and have had the most R&D to make them a superior Suppressor / Silencer / and Muzzle Brake.
They don't completely trap muzzle gas and release after it cools, they often times redirect it and disperse it even before it cools, they can even in some cases use said gas to act as a muzzle boost and use it to propel the bullet faster even while lowering the sound output and the recoil..... Suppressors have been far more successful then Silencers and the military hasn't been able to create the silent sniper rifle via Maxims design yet! Every Military Sniper uses a Suppressor because it still acts as a silencer.....

Milatary Silenced weapons almost always are subsonic like the VSS Vintorez and you wouldn't want to use that weapon to go deer hunting with, doc would have a heart attack!!!
As I suspected earlier, you are confusing a "suppressor" with a "flash suppressor". They are indeed two different things. When the rest of the world says "suppressor" they mean sound suppressor (AKA silencer). When they are talking about a flash suppressor, they say "flash suppressor".

In this thread, and in Federal Law referenced, and the video you linked, no one is talking about flash suppressors, they are talking about sound suppressors (AKA silencers). The only one talking about "flash suppressors" is you.

In your first post on the subject you wrote :
Sulfurblade wrote:You sir are talking Apples and Oranges! You are correct Suppressors are legal but Silencers are not...
The fact remains that both flash suppressors and sound suppressors (AKA silencers) are LEGAL in most states. Flash suppressor were restricted for about 10 years by the Federal Assault Weapons Ban of 1994-2004, but that expired. Only a few states still restrict flash suppressors. And the Assault Weapons Ban said nothing about sound suppressors (AKA silencers).
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