New Rifle for New Animal

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Sherab86
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by Sherab86 »

Why people are so fascinated with energy alone? ;)

Ok, it is important, and coupled with projectile design (material, shape, sectional density etc.) translates to penetration. But even if projectile pierce through an animal to other side of a body, but won't cause large enough wound, all that energy may become wasted. :P

Don't take me wrong - personaly I would propably also preffere a cartdridge with would allow me to stay farrer away, even if it would be of slightly smaller caliber, hence causing slightly smaller wounds. But I simply don't know why people tend to concentrate on energy that much, omitting projectile design and dimensions at the same time.
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InstinctiveArcher
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

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Tanngnjostr wrote:
InstinctiveArcher wrote:On another forum that I use,
There are other forums on the internet? :shock:
I use the word "forum" loosely. They all pale in comparison to this one though :lol:
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In hunting, impossible doesn't exist any more than a sure thing does. - Tom Miranda
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pirahna590
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by pirahna590 »

Sherab86 wrote:Why people are so fascinated with energy alone? ;)

Ok, it is important, and coupled with projectile design (material, shape, sectional density etc.) translates to penetration. But even if projectile pierce through an animal to other side of a body, but won't cause large enough wound, all that energy may become wasted. :P

Don't take me wrong - personaly I would propably also preffere a cartdridge with would allow me to stay farrer away, even if it would be of slightly smaller caliber, hence causing slightly smaller wounds. But I simply don't know why people tend to concentrate on energy that much, omitting projectile design and dimensions at the same time.
Energy is equated to damage in lamens terms ... typically the higher the energy with bigger bullet diameter translates into massive cavity wounds. Ideally you want the round to stop with in the cavity of the game animal ensuring maximum knock down power and internal damage, a bullet passing through hasnt exerted its entire kinetic energy into the animal and so there for has less of a knock down punch, even with in the same caliber. All this depends greatly on range, shot placement, ect ... but in the end it comes down to the kinetic energy of any given projectile to determine its lethality at given ranges . When it comes down to large dangerous game, you need maximum knock down power, you want to hit it with a sledge hammer on a rocket to put that animal down on the first shot ... I for see a LOT of med kits being used in hunting of these beasts. This should be a cool but dangerous map to hunt with the hogs roaming the area to boot ... question is, should the new rifle be permitted for the boars/hogs as well as they are on the same map an these lil piggys can take a thumpin an runnnnnnnnnnn lol
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Sherab86
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

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pirahna590 wrote:Ideally you want the round to stop with in the cavity of the game animal ensuring maximum knock down power and internal damage...
.

And this is my point. Don't take me wrong - I don't want to sound too autoritative - I'm only theoretician in those matters, but to my knowledge there is no such a thing like "knock down power". Energy is needed to penetrate - to cut and crush through a body tissues. So it take part to some point in "damage" creation - deeper the wound, greater wound cavity volume too. Enough of energy is also needed for reliable expansion and/or fragmentation of a projectile. But even if you put a lot of energy behind a needle it probably won't do to much damage to a buffalo, right? With enough of energy it will go trough it to other side of its body, but the wound will be hardly bleeding and sill itself in a seconds. By all means I do not neglect the importance of cartridge energy. But simply speaking, bigger projectile means bigger wounds, all other things being equal.

Of course much depends of intended use. But for example for self defence situations, at ranges up to 20 meters, I would definitely prefer cartridge of just enough of energy to penetrate to vital organs from many angles, but having as big projectile diameter as possible, than a cartridge with would send a projectile through several men at once, but having very small projectiles. This is because I want to create the fastest possible lost of blood pressure. And this is what kills - lost of blood pressure, hence stop of transport of oxygen to a brain (I omitt here direct damage to central nervous system), and not "knock down power" - again, as far as I know.
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Knut
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by Knut »

pirahna590 wrote:Ideally you want the round to stop with in the cavity
No, you don't.
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" ― Isaac Asimov
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Sherab86
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by Sherab86 »

Knut wrote:
pirahna590 wrote:Ideally you want the round to stop with in the cavity
No, you don't.
Yeah, I've read that too. Not only the exit wound is much bigger in itself (being in itself source of high bleeding) than enter wound, it also provides another "hole" for "escape" of a blood. ;)
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by pirahna590 »

Im talking about sheer knock down power, and for maximum knock down power to be achieved you need to have expelled all of the kinetic energy into the animal, where as a bullet that passes through both sides still has kenetic energy remaining, more then likely hasnt expanded to its fullest, so your not getting the maximum damage with in the wound channel and not only that but its not safe to have over penetration as you just dont know where that rounds going to hit after its passed through your intended target ... granted this is not an issue in TH but still, IRL you need to knoww here that rounds going to end up. Now you do make a valid point that with an exit point, there is a second wound to leak blood ... but now we're talking about an animal thats needing to bleed out and be tracked in comparison to an animal that just drops from the force of the hit. D.E.A.D ... DOA on the spot.
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Sherab86
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by Sherab86 »

pirahna590 wrote:Im talking about sheer knock down power, (...) Now you do make a valid point that with an exit point, there is a second wound to leak blood ... but now we're talking about an animal thats needing to bleed out and be tracked in comparison to an animal that just drops from the force of the hit. D.E.A.D ... DOA on the spot.
So I repeat - to my knowledge there is no such a thing like "knock down power" you are talking about. Yes, drops on a spot do occurs. But this has nothing to do with those so called "knock down power". Drops on spot do occur due to direct damage of central nervous system mostly. You can also damage by any luck some nerves controlling motion muscles. Great meaning, like in case of humans, have also state of mind of an animal prior and after being shot (shock effect). There is also possibility of existance of so called hydrostatic shock. But this subject is poorly researched, term itself poorly defined, and occurance (if it occurs at all) highly random.

You may want to read this:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm

Of course you don't have to agree. :) I only refer to what I know about the subject.

EDIT:
pirahna590 wrote:where as a bullet that passes through both sides still has kenetic energy remaining, more then likely hasnt expanded to its fullest, so your not getting the maximum damage with in the wound channel and not only that but its not safe to have over penetration as you just dont know where that rounds going to hit after its passed through your intended target ... granted this is not an issue in TH but still, IRL you need to knoww here that rounds going to end up.
.

This safety concern is the reason why in some states in USA you can hunt deers only with shotgun slugs. Such risk, you are talking about, is valid for any rifle realy - depending of distance to target, target itself ad so on. When it comes to reliable expansion - yes, energy is needed for this. But this is highly dependable of projectile design. With enough of energy during the hit, full expansion should occur during first couple of inches (or little more of centimeters) of penetration. But there are poorly designed projectiles on the marked of course. Generaly, you can not have to much of energy for reliable expansion as long, as projectile is well designed to expand in given medium (animals soft tissues by the most part). But yeah, since there are projectiles on the market with do not expand so reliably, it is probably better to start with large caliber in first place.
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pirahna590
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by pirahna590 »

Interesting read there Sherab86, I guess the term Im using is commonly spoke in these parts but not so much in other parts but having read that article I'll refer you to this hillbillies explanation of what Im talking about. BTW, I use the term hill billy effectionately, as most hillbillies will know more about guns then most city slickers :) ... but ... " Wound Trauma Incapacitation: The inability of a human or animal to continue purposeful action due to the effects of being struck by a penetrating missile.". Not sure why he used the term missile there, but this is what Im talking about with knock down power. Knock Down Power here is also referred to as Stopping Power

Also, for your enjoyment, I did a quick youtube search for knock down power aka stopping power, some real interesting videos SHOWING you eactly what Im talking about ;) https://www.google.com/search?ei=yEkdWq ... lWbdrYdCMY

Oh, an the good ol boys over at Federal premium ammunition love throwing that word around alot too ... here they even use it in their description for .416 ammo :

Federal Premium
Federal Premium® .416 Rigby Rifle Ammunition

When taking that hunt of a lifetime on an African safari, be prepared with the great knockdown power of this .416 Rigby ammunition. Barnes TSX ammo is lead-free non-toxic. 20 per box.
Photo may not depict available caliber and quantity. Refer to order chart for available calibers and quantities. Carefully review your final order to ensure you will be receiving your desired caliber and quantity.
Regular Price: $204.99

Gotta say I almost choked on my coffee when I saw the price tag of $204.99 for a box of 20 rounds lol, hope EW isnt thinking these prices lol
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Jack.Grave
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by Jack.Grave »

:arrow: piranha590 Aye aye Safari grade ammo is hellish expensive. Lets sums things up: .416 Rigby shell casing can cost from 6-12 USD (depends on manufacturer), Barnes TSX cost about 6-8 USD/pc (end customer price) so profit for manufacturer and dealers are rougly 2 USD/pc (taxes excluded). So safari hunting is expensive thing. Also dont forget .416 Rigby contains about 100 grs of fine smokeless powder afaik expensive powders like Vihtavuori or Swiss RS are recomendedagain powders with top dolar shelf price). Jack
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