New Rifle for New Animal

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srb2012
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by srb2012 »

I don't know anything about ammunition so is the "454 bear stopper" sidearm going to be enough and what about shotguns.
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Sherab86
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by Sherab86 »

pirahna590 wrote:Interesting read there Sherab86, I guess the term Im using is commonly spoke in these parts but not so much in other parts but having read that article I'll refer you to this hillbillies explanation of what Im talking about. BTW, I use the term hill billy effectionately, as most hillbillies will know more about guns then most city slickers :) ... but ... " Wound Trauma Incapacitation: The inability of a human or animal to continue purposeful action due to the effects of being struck by a penetrating missile.". Not sure why he used the term missile there, but this is what Im talking about with knock down power. Knock Down Power here is also referred to as Stopping Power.

Well, you were keeping to claim this "knock down power" is achieved by dumping energy into a target. So I understood this as an example of what is called as "Energy Transfer School" in linked article, and from scientific/medical perspective, this school of thinking is wrong. It can be showed also on basis of third law of dynamics. If there would be enough of energy behind a projectile to knock down (incapitate) a buffalo, than you as a shooter would be incapitated too because of a recoil. This article is not only source I've read, btw. He mention "missile" in his explanations, because in large picture, this do not have to be an firearm projectile/bullet. ;)

While I'm theorethician in the subject, I wouldn't call myself city slicker. ;) I live right now rarher in more rural country, I'm amateour nature photographer, I was warking a lot in terrain during my master and PhD studies as palaeontologist. So while I'm rather homebody if there is nothing outside that inspires me enough to leave home, I would prefer not be compared with city slickers. ;)

And I can perfectly understand, that IRL hunters, soldiers, policemen and so on, will for sure know more how to actualy use firearms. Where to aim too. They can choose adequate cartdridge more intuitively. But (I hope no one will feel offended) they do not neccesery know better what is actualy going on with the projectile and a body of a target, and what realy couse effects they do observe on "outside".


Take also the notion, that if you want to equalise yours "knock down power" with "stopping power", or "Wound Trauma Incapitation" (and I have nothing against), then dumping energy into a target as a source of this phenomenom is rather neglected by this article (and many others). Again, "stopping power" comes mainly from two sources (when we speak of weapons only, and omitting mental and physical state of a victim) - direct damage to central nervous system and/or severe bleeding with causes drop of a blood pressure to a point in with there is no sufficient oxygen transport to a brain. When we speak of efficiency as such, we would also have to add mental and physical state of a target. For example enough of pain can cause, so to speak, "overloading" of nervous system and lost of concious. From other hand, a lot of adrenaline and/or other "agression" hormons in a blood can cause a situation in with a target will hardly note any pain.

In oposition to linked article, I do take into account a hydrostatic shock. There actualy were researches with seems to confirm the phenomenom. But, as I wrote, they had usualy many logical errors, so this is why I consider the subject as poorly researched. And since (if it exists at all) the phenomenom occurs very randomly it is hard to rely on it for "stopping power".

Said all this, we both live in free countries (well, yet - I don't how long my will stay realy free with current goverment), and each of us can "believe" in what he/she want. ;)

Thx. for discussion, anyway. :) This has become the big off-topic so I would prefer to end here. ;)
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pirahna590
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by pirahna590 »

Its all good, I do realize that its a heated topic even with in the shooting community and I do agree with a lot of what your saying. Sorry for any confusion, I wasnt referring to you as a city slicker, guess it was a poor attempt to add humor to lighten the subject.
Happy Hunting :D
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Sherab86
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by Sherab86 »

pirahna590 wrote:Its all good, I do realize that its a heated topic even with in the shooting community and I do agree with a lot of what your saying. Sorry for any confusion, I wasnt referring to you as a city slicker, guess it was a poor attempt to add humor to lighten the subject.
Happy Hunting :D
No offence taken. I try to use this emoticon: ;) conciously. So this part was with a grain of salt. ;)

Happy Hunting to you too! :)

srb2012 wrote:I don't know anything about ammunition so is the "454 bear stopper" sidearm going to be enough and what about shotguns.
.

In the game .454 cartridge is allowed for Bison, so I suppose there is big chance it will be allowed for new bovines too. I don't have a handgun in the game, so I can not say how effective it is in game environment. IRL I would consider it only as self defence weapon, not a main hunting weapon. Point is, that usualy (I admitt I don't know much about this specific cartridge) handguns cartidges are relatively weak (in terms of energy and penetration capabilities), so with longer distances they may not penetrate deep enough. At short distances, it would probably do the job well - but well dosn't necessery mean instantly - all depends of shot placement and other factors. So I'm not sure would you like to be very close (for penetration) to big bovine in rage. ;)

More-less same goes for shotgun slugs, however they might have even bigger problems with penetration. But any shotgun in the game is not allowed for Bison, so I believe it won't be for new bovines too.

EDIT:

I did a little bit research and this is funny, because it seems that in-game .454 cartridge is at least a little bit overpowered in terms of penetration. Most of you already now this chart. According to it (and if it is still valid) .454 falls only behind .300 and tenpoint crossbow.

But I did some math, and I found out that at a muzzle, with assumption of 240 gr projectile, and 1900 fps muzzle velocity (data from wikipedia - I didn't found official Nosler data), there should be less of penetration than for example in case of .243 (weight and velocity as a model present in the game) at 100 m.

This may include high error. I'm using formula developed for naval cannons. But principle is the same. Still, there are some assumptions have been made. For example, my results are somewhat valid only for projectiles of exactly same design, and this is clearly not the case. But I suppose that even if differences would be included (original formula contains constant with characterise projectile design and material being penetrated), the results would be even more sharp.

But... from other hand we have second important thing - results are somewhat valid only for FMJ projectiles going stright through a target.This is because projectiles diameter play high roll here. But in reality, both projectiles are designed to expand, but it is hard to find some reliable data for amount of expansion. And while relatively short handgun projectiles (FMJ) tend to go through ballistic gel keeping nose more-less in front position, rifle long, tapered tip projectiles tends to tummble. Those facts in oposition to previous ones may reduce the difference.

To sum up, while differences may be much less prounanced in reality compared to my results, still in-game .454 feels to be OP.


Don't take me wrong - this is still very powerful cartridge for a handgun. And I'm sure it is very devastating at relatively short range. But I think its in-game penetration capabilities over distance are at least to some point exagerated.
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gas56
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by gas56 »

pirahna590 wrote:Yeah the 9.3x62 is probably going to be one of the allowed ammunition's for the water buffalo as well, but I HOPE that would be as low as they go with these animals.

Looking up the ballistics of the 9.3x62, a 250Gr soft point traveling at 780.0 m/s (2,559 ft/s) produces 4,928 J (3,635 ft·lbf) of kinetic energy where as the .340 with a 250Gr SP traveling at 903 m/s (2,963 ft/s) produces 6,607 J (4,873 ft·lbf) of kentic energy. Strangely enough when comparing to the Big Bore family cartridges of .416 and the .450 Nitro Express, I found the .416 to edge ahead of the .450NE. A .450NE which has a 500 gr SP traveling at 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) produces 6,959 J (5,133 ft·lbf) of kenetic energy where as the .416 Weatherby Magnum 400 gr (26 g) RN travelling at 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s) produces 6,474 ft·lbf (8,778 J) of kentic energy ... 6474 foot pounds of energy :shock: :shock: :shock: :lol:

Put me down for a .416 NE Double Barreled Rifle please :D :D
It's like this..... if you throw a bigger rock even slower than a smaller rock the bigger rock always does the most damage even if you cant' throw the bigger rock as far as the smaller one.........that is if you can hit it :lol:
I'm deer gun hunting this week in Ohio,.. and there is a new revision on the game laws that you can use straight wall rifle bullets from .357 to .50 cal.
These bullets just don't travel that far because some parts of Ohio the terrain Is pretty flat, and the 45/70 is one of them.
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lse2003
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by lse2003 »

What about Big Bore Air rifles that would be way more challenging than a regular rifle and I could also not spook animals as far as regular rifles do.
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caledonianblues
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by caledonianblues »

lse2003 wrote:What about Big Bore Air rifles that would be way more challenging than a regular rifle and I could also not spook animals as far as regular rifles do.
Do you mean for water buffalo and banteng? :?
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InstinctiveArcher
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by InstinctiveArcher »

lse2003 wrote:What about Big Bore Air rifles that would be way more challenging than a regular rifle and I could also not spook animals as far as regular rifles do.
I've seen these guns but the largest animal that I've seen taken with an air gun was a red hartebeest.

I don't think that hunting an animal with a gun that is less than marginal just to see if it can be done doesn't make any sense. Hunting a large animal like a buffalo with an air rifle just doesn't seem like a good ideas to me.
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In hunting, impossible doesn't exist any more than a sure thing does. - Tom Miranda
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mapache01
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by mapache01 »

Here's a .308 Big Bore Air Rifle, that's a .308
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/AirForce ... Rifle/3575
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mapache01
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Re: New Rifle for New Animal

Post by mapache01 »

Here's some Big Bore Air Rifle,
A .308
https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/AirForce ... Rifle/3575
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BIG BAD AIR RIFLE .45 and .50
.50 Air Venturi Wing Shot Smooth Bore Shotgun/Arrow Rifle
Authoritative Knock-Down Power for Animals 131 to 200 lbs.
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50 Evanix Max-ML Repeating PCP Bullpup
Authoritative Knock-Down Power for Animals 131 to 200 lbs.
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.45 BIG Bore Air Rifles
.45 Hatsan Hercules QE PCP Pellet Rifle
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You want to see more, here's a link

2000lb bison shot with the Quackenbush LA .457 Safari gun
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http://www.bigboreairguns.com/07bisonhunt.htm

http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/Black_bear.htm
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