Spend spend spend

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Radamus
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Re: Spend spend spend

Post by Radamus »

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walt133
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Re: Spend spend spend

Post by walt133 »

crwilson12 wrote:Not 1 person in my family uses a scope and none ever take shots over 40m and not 1 has ever hunted from a stand or blind over bait..
Wow. Brilliant. Headshots with iron sights. Also I did not see one post on here accusing your family of being poachers? Why would you get so defensive over something that has no truth?
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crwilson12
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Re: Spend spend spend

Post by crwilson12 »

walt133 wrote:
crwilson12 wrote:Not 1 person in my family uses a scope and none ever take shots over 40m and not 1 has ever hunted from a stand or blind over bait..
Wow. Brilliant. Headshots with iron sights. Also I did not see one post on here accusing your family of being poachers? Why would you get so defensive over something that has no truth?

with your comment about iron sights I can clearly see you have actually never hunted even once in your life....

and where did I say even 1 time that I think everyone should be shooting deer in the head? the post was about "ingame" guns not killing animals with headshots my point was that it is ridiculous headshots are by far the fastest way to dispatch an animals and 90% of family members shoot animals with headshots. When you go to an abattoir how many of them kill animals with a shot to the ribcage? not a single one because its inhumane and insanely slow, even a heart that has been shot can continue to supply enough blood for 2-3 min. How many animals can live 2-3 minutes with half there brain missing absolutely 0 but its pretty clear you think you are the smartest person on the planet and only you can do things correctly.

maybe you should please go tell the thousands of offspring of the hutners who fed there familys and survived the depression by shooting animals with headshots and saving ammunition that was basically pricless, that there parents and grandparents were complete morons as you so clearly think they are and only you know how to hunt animals because you obviously think you are jesus Christ. Also you still cant provide one bit of proof that animal skulls even remotely can stop a bullet that is aimed well. the only deflects possible are ones that the angles are so low it would be a grazing shot anways. The world record grizzly bear from 1953 that stood for over 30 years was killed with one shot to the head with a .22 and yes it was by a relative of mine who was bird hunting, and had nothing else to defend themselves with but an old coey single shot.
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Sherab86
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Re: Spend spend spend

Post by Sherab86 »

walt133 wrote:
Sherab86 wrote:Btw. While I don't know how you, guys, can do, what you do (IRL), and sleep colmely at night
Well, I think alot of it has to do with how you are brought up. To some it is a way of life. The venison is good, and if you respect the animal, and don't waste the meat it is way different then just poaching and senseless killing. As for sleeping at night, can you eat a burger and sleep calmly at night? I don't know maybe you are a vegetarian, but I can peacefully fall a sleep knowing that the meat is not going to waste and that I killed the animal as quickly and cleanly as possible. I am not saying this to argue I really think you have some good points. Just wanted to give my opinion, and hopefully give you some understanding of why I do what I do. Peace, ;)
SoftShoe wrote:
Sherab86 wrote: Btw. While I don't know how you, guys, can do, what you do (IRL), and sleep colmely at night
WHAT?!?!?

I hope you dont take this to hard Sherab but meat doesnt come from the grocery store nor does it grow in the wild wrapped in plastic.
As much as you may wish to deny it, you sir are a bipedal, opposable thumbed, binocular visioned predator. Its to our societies great credit & even greater disgrace that there are people so detached from the cycle of life that they can stand in judgement of those that embrace it.

You know who I wonder can sleep at night? People that work in meat packing companies. I visited one once & having grown up on a farm & knowing how cattle act can tell you those animals KNEW they were about to die all so delicate minded individuals can get their meat in neatly wrapped plastic packages.
At least the animals we hunt get to really live before we quickly & humanely end their lives at which point they become sustenance for our families.
Wow. Yes - I wanted to present my standpoint, but honestly I didn't want to start another off-topic by this. I've only said, that I personally can't understand this. By all means, I didn't meant to convince any one to not hunt, or not to eat a meat, or anything like that. I hope this is clear.

I'll try to answer to this as short as I can, but this is not that easy. :P

I'm palaeontologist by my eductation. So I'm perfectly aware of our (Homo sapiens) evolutionary history. In oposition to some "fanatic" vegetarians or vegans, I do not claim, that eating only food of plant origin is natural to as, because it is not (what is frightening, some of this people even have PhD titles). Meat is a part of our diet from the begining of our species, and I won't deny this. But probably we eat too much of meat by avarage in our so called "western" societies.

However, I'm a kind of semi-vegetarian - I eat meat, if for example I'm a guest somewhere. Animal is long dead, I can not ressurect it, and my host already payed for the meat. Will I eat it or not will change nothing. But I don't buy meat by my own money. I'm aware of conditions in with farm animals are held and killed in "factory" farms, for needs of massive meat production. And I don't want to financiate this. While farming for eggs and milk is also far from perfection, I eat cheese and eggs.

I'm not disgusted by a sight of carcasses, blood, or death as such. But I always was interested in animal's etology and behaviorism. And more I know about them, then more and more I see how small is the difference between them and me. There is now plenty of scientific evidences, especially for mammals, that most of them are simply feeling, sentient beings. They can feel suffering and happyness. And as us they want to avoid suffering, and be happy. There is less evidence, but this goes at leas as far "back" as to fishes. And there is some possibilty that even insects share with us some most basic feelings.

Same way as I don't want a suffering of my human neighbour, and I don't want to take his or her life, with is so precious to him/her, I'm also not interested in taking away a life on other sentient beings and to cause their suffering.

You may add to this also my religion - with is buddhism - to have full picture.

I want to point out that I don't write this to convince anyone to my rights, but rather to explain my attitude.

Now - I can certainly agree that an experienced hunter, having respect to his/her prey, is probably much more humane than workers of many "factory farms" and butcheries (but of course not every farm or butchery is the same - there are for sure also some positive examples).

From other hand, in our western societies we don't really need to hunt. We (as societiy) kill quite enough of our farm animals in said butcheries. We can argue about quality of "shop" meat, but in general if someone goes into the woods to hunt, one is doing this rather because one like this, and not because one have to.

And maybe I will surprise you, but I can understand this to some point. I would even say that our species is to some point fascinated by violence. It is enough to see what kind of movies we make, or take a look at Roman Colosseum. And this applies to me too. So I can understand a joy one can take from tracking and stalking one's prey. I can even share those feelings in practice, during my photo-trips. Even more - I can understand even the joy of shooting one's prey and seeing effects of this. In similar way I can enjoy this on my PC monitor (and probably part of the reason I want so much more realism in this matter). But what would stop me IRL is awareness. Awareness, that there before me is not a thing, but leaving, sentient being, same as me. And as I said, I don't want to be cause of it's suffering.

Again - I don't want to convince anyone, but only to explain my attitude.

I hope this is enough to prevent farrer discussion about this.

Best wishes, and good virtual hunting! :)
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walt133
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Re: Spend spend spend

Post by walt133 »

crwilson12 wrote:with your comment about iron sights I can clearly see you have actually never hunted even once in your life....
That's a good one! I would venture to say I have lost far less animals then you have. Why? I don't take headshots with iron sights. I have hunted with both iron sights and scope's in my life. Here's the thing Sir, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. There's nothing wrong with hunting with iron sights, I still hunt with both. However taking a headshot at 40 yards with no scope is stupid. You have not magnification! Heck taking head shots is stupid period. But then you try to do it with iron sights. :?

And did you ever stop to think that I never accused you of poaching. Yet you very clearly just said you can see I have never hunted in my life. I am not offended I am rather amused. No responsible hunter should IMO condemn another hunter for using scope's. Is not the goal of a hunter to take the animal as cleanly as possible? If I choose to use a scope( which by the way I do not always especially with shotguns, I actually shoot deer with a 12 gauge with slugs, and a rifled barrel with 2 3/4 slugs and iron sights) And if your family honestly thinks that they can take a animal more humanely by shooting it in the head, then more power to them. However I would be interested in knowing how many deer your family has wounded and could not find.

So with all of that said I mean no offense to your family. Making it personal does not help your agenda. It just delays talking about the actual issue. Also I am not only a avid hunter, but also a avid fisherman. I have spent all my growing up years in the outdoors hunting and fishing, and I still do. I love the sport and that is why I do not take headshots. Do I think I could make the shot? Absolutely, but I don't because it is unnecessary risk.
crwilson12 wrote: When you go to an abattoir how many of them kill animals with a shot to the ribcage?
This actually makes you look ignorant. You may not be but it still appears that way. Of course they shoot them in the brain from 5 feet away. 140 feet is another matter entirely. Also where did I say I am the smartest person? Nowhere.

So in closing I respect your opinions and I hope you can do the same for me. I disagree with your methods but that does not mean they don't work for you. I would urge you to talk to some hunters outside your family IRL and ask them if they have had those experiences. I personally know one hunter who tried for a head shot. Just then the deer ducked, and he hit the base of the antlers right on top of the skull. He thought he killed it, so he left his gun and walked up to it. Looking down he saw where his bullet hit. As he was going back for his gun, the deer jumped up and took off. Plus the shooting a deer in the chest comment in "our" area makes it look like you have never hunted in your entire life. Notice I said makes it look like, not I can clearly see. And if I may ask do you shoot deer in the head? See what is interesting to me is you defended shooting deer in the head very passionately, until you started taking heat for it. Now you are saying " I never said I shoot them in the head just 90 percent of my family". So which is it Sir? Because if you shoot animals in the chest just like 90 percent of the rest of the hunters it shows you don't believe your own story.

With respect,
Walt ;)
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SoftShoe
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Re: Spend spend spend

Post by SoftShoe »

You cant buy this kinda entertainment...

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Sherab86 wrote:
Wow. Yes - I wanted to present my standpoint, but honestly I didn't want to start another off-topic by this.
Oh no worries there, this thread has wandered far afield. Been over hill & dale even.

Image
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walt133
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Re: Spend spend spend

Post by walt133 »

crwilson12 wrote:maybe you should please go tell the thousands of offspring of the hutners who fed there familys and survived the depression by shooting animals with headshots and saving ammunition that was basically pricless, that there parents and grandparents were complete morons as you so clearly think they are and only you know how to hunt animals because you obviously think you are jesus Christ. Also you still cant provide one bit of proof that animal skulls even remotely can stop a bullet that is aimed well. the only deflects possible are ones that the angles are so low it would be a grazing shot anways. The world record grizzly bear from 1953 that stood for over 30 years was killed with one shot to the head with a .22 and yes it was by a relative of mine who was bird hunting, and had nothing else to defend themselves with but an old coey single shot.
Where is your evidence that the hunters shot the animals in the head during the great depression? If you know the anatomy of a deer you can kill it with a shot to the heart, just as easy as you can to the head. Without the risk of missing. Which is way more important during the great depression then shooting the animal through the heart and having to walk 50 yards to get it.

And where did I say they were complete morons? Nowhere did I say that. Do I think there was a better way they could have done it? Yes. That doesn't mean I am right, and I said that as well. In my first post I said I am not condemning anyone who takes head shots, but that I would not do it. I am sure there are things I could learn from your family. But I would venture to say there are things that your family could learn from me. No one is perfect. It's just a fact of life.

Now as to your relative killing a grizzly bear with a .22 he got lucky. He probably shot it either through the eye socket or the ear, straight to the brain. Anywhere else he would have been dead. There is also the possibility that when he shot it the bear broke off it's charge and ran away and died. I would like to know the story behind this. How far did the bear run? Did it die on the spot?
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