Need for Re-Working of Waterfowl

[Thoke2014]

After taking a prolonged break from the game I finally came back and found many things had been changed/fixed. This said I was sad to find waterfowling in the same state as when I stopped playing almost a year ago. So I figured I'd make a post to address some issues that I see in the game in comparison to my experience as an IRL waterfowl.

Duck Hunting:
For me duck hunting just isn't fun anymore, its the same thing over and over with all the species behaving the same, a trait that is totally inaccurate, and with the flight mechanics needing a vital rework.
1. Stop the flock mixing, 99% of the time duck species stick with their own kind and the only mixing realistic would be 1-2 black duck or pintail in a mallard flock.
2. The majority of ducks don't fly in large flocks and don't fly sky high. Most of the ducks we should be seeing are pairs and flocks of 5-6 birds flying along waterways and in erratic patters (like when they're trying to land)
3. Their landing animations are pathetic, most ducks land quickly (not circling 7 times) and as a flock in the same spot without all the splitting mess that we have in this game, also mix it up a bit with some circling a couple times and some not at all.
4. Introduction of cripples would make the dogs actually useful, basically if you shoot a duck past 40m it has the chance of going down but not just dying, instead it can try to swim to the bank and dive under the water
5. Give the flight mechanics some freedom, for instance ducks will fly vertically and backwards (hard to explain) when shot at and your lucky to get off 3 shots in real life instead of the 5-6 you can regularly get in this game. They also land vertically, hence the term "dropping in" which is what mallards and other puddle ducks do in timber environments like the Bayou. DUCKS SHOULDN'T FLY SLOW AND IN A STRAIGHT LINE, THEY TURN AND ARE VERY QUICK..
6. Add more ducks, with the priority being teal and wood ducks. These would make duck hunting a whole lot more interesting because they tend to fly super quick through trees and at water level and don't need to be called. Would add some randomness to the hunt to have a flock buzz your decoys every so often.
7. The blinds are trash, given that ducks come from above, a blind of that configuration would never work and you would be seen 10/10 times. I would love to see premade permanent blind locations much like towers and also have buyable deployable wooden blinds
8. Decoy placement should dictate where the ducks land, it would actually make that important and interesting since you could try and direct the ducks into landing in the line of fire of your blinds


Goose Hunting:
Its in better shape then duck hunting but that is just because Geese are much more simple birds, it does need a couple things fixed though
1. The landings, Geese land vertically with a sort of backpedal as they approach. The circling is realistic to some degree but keep it minimal and they should circle higher with a very steep and quick approach to land
2. Broken wings should be a thing instead of OHK every time, anyone who has goose hunting knows they don't go down easy and like with ducks having your dog chase a goose that landed across the field would make them useful
3. Same gripe about the blinds, instead for geese have layout blinds (look it up) which would actually be realistic
4. Same gripe about decoys, even more important for geese

Overall I think it needs a complete overhaul but I doubt that'll happen.

[JimboCrow]

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, and that you took the time to lay it all out, but what you're asking for is a huge undertaking. Even one or two of your suggestions would be a helluva lot of work to implement, and some are just about impossible. How much coding do you think it would involve to rework the whole system? With this engine, in this old game, with the small team of developers they employ? Holy cow, man! Surely you jest. Nevertheless, welcome back. What do you think of the new reserve?

[waiora]

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, and that you took the time to lay it all out, but what you're asking for is a huge undertaking. Even one or two of your suggestions would be a helluva lot of work to implement, and some are just about impossible. How much coding do you think it would involve to rework the whole system? With this engine, in this old game, with the small team of developers they employ? Holy cow, man! Surely you jest. Nevertheless, welcome back. What do you think of the new reserve?

I tend to agree with him. When decoys are sold for 1$ each, blinds are almost 5$, callers 2$ each and you require various guns, the amount of work for improving ducks is justified. Ducks cost enough to be a whole game by itself, and the experience should reflect that.

How much does CotW cost for example, how much work goes into that. How great could ducks/geese have been if that work was put into them instead.

To add at least one thing to the list, the ducks shouldn't break in the same repetitive pattern, female>male>female>male etc.

[Thoke2014]

I thought that most these things were impossible too before I saw the new reserve and especially the way wolves act as well as the elk (fleeing erratically from the wolves). I know some of them might be a stretch but I'd settle for just improving the flight and landing mechanics if it came down to it. Personally I don't know a lot about game coding but I'm hoping with what they've done recently it would be feasible to just add a bit more erratic behavior into the formula and refine how they land. As for the new reserve I like it a lot, lots of area and a cool mix of animals. Still hoping for a reserve were we can hunt both ducks and geese though..

[Hawkeye]

After taking a prolonged break from the game I finally came back and found many things had been changed/fixed. This said I was sad to find waterfowling in the same state as when I stopped playing almost a year ago. So I figured I'd make a post to address some issues that I see in the game in comparison to my experience as an IRL waterfowl.

I know you put a lot of time into this & I agree with some others that many of these items would take a massive rework. That being said, some of these items, I just disagree with, so I'll go through them 1 by 1.

1. Stop the flock mixing, 99% of the time duck species stick with their own kind and the only mixing realistic would be 1-2 black duck or pintail in a mallard flock.

Where I hunt, in Arkansas, we see mixed flocks every single day. We see all sorts of mixes. I don't think the game is unrealistic in this aspect. Most of the flocks in-game are not mixed.

2. The majority of ducks don't fly in large flocks and don't fly sky high. Most of the ducks we should be seeing are pairs and flocks of 5-6 birds flying along waterways and in erratic patters (like when they're trying to land)

Maybe that's just a Virginia thing. We see ducks act very similar to the way they do in-game, in that we see some flocks flying high that usually have no interest in landing, then we see ducks out of nowhere coming right above the trees, ready to circle & land. Those pairs of ducks & groups of 5-6 ducks that come into range had to come from somewhere, often a larger flock up high that you just don't see the break-off. That, in my experience, is the biggest difference, since in-game we actually witness the break-off every time, where we wouldn't see that most of the time in the field. From a gameplay perspective, I think it makes perfect sense the way they've implemented it. Think of it this way...if ducks came flying low straight over the trees in their flocks, how would you know which birds had "broke", and can be shot at vs the ones that hadn't?

3. Their landing animations are pathetic, most ducks land quickly (not circling 7 times) and as a flock in the same spot without all the splitting mess that we have in this game, also mix it up a bit with some circling a couple times and some not at all.

Some ducks land immediately, some ducks act like they won't ever land, circling forever. Have a look at this Stuttgart, Arkansas video:


This is one of those areas that would probably require a complete rework of the system if it were changed. If you coded the ducks with this kind of randomness, adding that ducks could land immediately, you're not giving the player any opportunity to short-call & shoot those ducks. I think this goes against the grain, to be honest.

4. Introduction of cripples would make the dogs actually useful, basically if you shoot a duck past 40m it has the chance of going down but not just dying, instead it can try to swim to the bank and dive under the water

This would definitely be interesting. I always enjoyed watching my lab go underwater for a wounded, diving duck.

5. Give the flight mechanics some freedom, for instance ducks will fly vertically and backwards (hard to explain) when shot at and your lucky to get off 3 shots in real life instead of the 5-6 you can regularly get in this game. They also land vertically, hence the term "dropping in" which is what mallards and other puddle ducks do in timber environments like the Bayou. DUCKS SHOULDN'T FLY SLOW AND IN A STRAIGHT LINE, THEY TURN AND ARE VERY QUICK..

On this one, I agree, more flying variation would always be a good thing. A lot of rework, though, in terms of AI & animations.

6. Add more ducks, with the priority being teal and wood ducks. These would make duck hunting a whole lot more interesting because they tend to fly super quick through trees and at water level and don't need to be called. Would add some randomness to the hunt to have a flock buzz your decoys every so often.

More ducks are always a good idea, but I would wholeheartedly disagree with teal being considered a priority. Teal begin their migration months before the ducks that we have in Rougarou Bayou currently, so it would be odd to have them mixed in. You're far more likely to see American Widgeon than anything else among ducks we don't already have. We have days where we kill more widgeons & gadwalls than mallards. IMO, the last thing we need is another bird in the mix that would be more rare than gadwalls.

7. The blinds are trash, given that ducks come from above, a blind of that configuration would never work and you would be seen 10/10 times. I would love to see premade permanent blind locations much like towers and also have buyable deployable wooden blinds

The blinds were definitely designed as a bit of a gameplay compromise. I've always supported the idea of a permanent, more realistic blind using the same system we now have for towers, where you carry a building permit to have it constructed.

8. Decoy placement should dictate where the ducks land, it would actually make that important and interesting since you could try and direct the ducks into landing in the line of fire of your blinds

What would be the purpose of short-range callers under such a design?

[L3M182]

duck hunting and waterfowling in general is my favourite part of this game so any extra work to bring this mode to life get my thumbs up. however going of previous EW trends and general releases, a massive overhaul sadly just wont happen imo. weve had ducks, then geese, retriever that brought focus back to it and then the new 3 ducks. and they all followed the same formula and have had plenty of time between releases to reword stuff. they seem pretty content with what they've created.

[Thoke2014]

After taking a prolonged break from the game I finally came back and found many things had been changed/fixed. This said I was sad to find waterfowling in the same state as when I stopped playing almost a year ago. So I figured I'd make a post to address some issues that I see in the game in comparison to my experience as an IRL waterfowl.

I know you put a lot of time into this & I agree with some others that many of these items would take a massive rework. That being said, some of these items, I just disagree with, so I'll go through them 1 by 1.

1. Stop the flock mixing, 99% of the time duck species stick with their own kind and the only mixing realistic would be 1-2 black duck or pintail in a mallard flock.

Where I hunt, in Arkansas, we see mixed flocks every single day. We see all sorts of mixes. I don't think the game is unrealistic in this aspect. Most of the flocks in-game are not mixed.

2. The majority of ducks don't fly in large flocks and don't fly sky high. Most of the ducks we should be seeing are pairs and flocks of 5-6 birds flying along waterways and in erratic patters (like when they're trying to land)

Maybe that's just a Virginia thing. We see ducks act very similar to the way they do in-game, in that we see some flocks flying high that usually have no interest in landing, then we see ducks out of nowhere coming right above the trees, ready to circle & land. Those pairs of ducks & groups of 5-6 ducks that come into range had to come from somewhere, often a larger flock up high that you just don't see the break-off. That, in my experience, is the biggest difference, since in-game we actually witness the break-off every time, where we wouldn't see that most of the time in the field. From a gameplay perspective, I think it makes perfect sense the way they've implemented it. Think of it this way...if ducks came flying low straight over the trees in their flocks, how would you know which birds had "broke", and can be shot at vs the ones that hadn't?

3. Their landing animations are pathetic, most ducks land quickly (not circling 7 times) and as a flock in the same spot without all the splitting mess that we have in this game, also mix it up a bit with some circling a couple times and some not at all.

Some ducks land immediately, some ducks act like they won't ever land, circling forever. Have a look at this Stuttgart, Arkansas video:


This is one of those areas that would probably require a complete rework of the system if it were changed. If you coded the ducks with this kind of randomness, adding that ducks could land immediately, you're not giving the player any opportunity to short-call & shoot those ducks. I think this goes against the grain, to be honest.

4. Introduction of cripples would make the dogs actually useful, basically if you shoot a duck past 40m it has the chance of going down but not just dying, instead it can try to swim to the bank and dive under the water

This would definitely be interesting. I always enjoyed watching my lab go underwater for a wounded, diving duck.

5. Give the flight mechanics some freedom, for instance ducks will fly vertically and backwards (hard to explain) when shot at and your lucky to get off 3 shots in real life instead of the 5-6 you can regularly get in this game. They also land vertically, hence the term "dropping in" which is what mallards and other puddle ducks do in timber environments like the Bayou. DUCKS SHOULDN'T FLY SLOW AND IN A STRAIGHT LINE, THEY TURN AND ARE VERY QUICK..

On this one, I agree, more flying variation would always be a good thing. A lot of rework, though, in terms of AI & animations.

6. Add more ducks, with the priority being teal and wood ducks. These would make duck hunting a whole lot more interesting because they tend to fly super quick through trees and at water level and don't need to be called. Would add some randomness to the hunt to have a flock buzz your decoys every so often.

More ducks are always a good idea, but I would wholeheartedly disagree with teal being considered a priority. Teal begin their migration months before the ducks that we have in Rougarou Bayou currently, so it would be odd to have them mixed in. You're far more likely to see American Widgeon than anything else among ducks we don't already have. We have days where we kill more widgeons & gadwalls than mallards. IMO, the last thing we need is another bird in the mix that would be more rare than gadwalls.

7. The blinds are trash, given that ducks come from above, a blind of that configuration would never work and you would be seen 10/10 times. I would love to see premade permanent blind locations much like towers and also have buyable deployable wooden blinds

The blinds were definitely designed as a bit of a gameplay compromise. I've always supported the idea of a permanent, more realistic blind using the same system we now have for towers, where you carry a building permit to have it constructed.

8. Decoy placement should dictate where the ducks land, it would actually make that important and interesting since you could try and direct the ducks into landing in the line of fire of your blinds

What would be the purpose of short-range callers under such a design?

Thanks for the input Hawkeye, I definitely see some of your points so I'll just go through and comment on what I think

1. I don't have a problem with mixes necessary, I more have a problem with the number I remember seeing back when I hunted ducks quite often, it seemed then that almost every flock was mixed at least a little bit and we didn't see many full Black duck or Gadwall flocks, which would be the norm for where I live

2. Yeah again I think its a location thing, what I meant was that here we of course see high flying flocks but they are almost never looking to land. The ducks we shoot are coming from their roost to a feed source and thus don't climb very high since that it un-needed work for the ducks. They way they're implemented now makes it look like your calling migrating ducks in which rarely ever happens here, from what I've seen ducks tend to stay by themselves until they are used to the area. As for the problem with breaking I'm not sure, personally I think breaking should be done away with but that will never happen so it does pose a problem.

3. I agree ducks circle, my problem is with how they circle super low and extremely slow with a lot of splitting of the flock (even with short range caller, maybe I'm just bad though), when I've hunted timber (kind of like the Bayou) the ducks will circle but they stay high while doing so (out of shotgun range) and then drop into the decoys very quickly. As for giving the player an opportunity to shoot I'd much rather them re-work the landing mechanics and let us shoot them as they are about to land, which is the way I learned waterfowling is supposed to be done. Open rice fields are a much different story..

6. I mean I'm not sure how realistic Rougarou Bayou is in the first place.. It's a summer map in the southernmost US were you are hunting ducks that are mainly still in Canada at that time of year. If anything teal would fit the environment more than all the other big ducks. That said I understand your point, where we hunt some teal stay to winter just like the other ducks so seeing 2-3 flocks of teal buzzing the march isn't uncommon when there are mallards and gadwalls around.. As for Wigeon its my favorite duck but it wouldn't bring anything new in terms of mechanics. Woodies I know for a fact are the most common duck in Louisiana and would fit the idea of an erratic duck perfectly if you ask me (plus they are there year round so they'd make sense in the summer)

7. Yeah was thinking about that more, they are definitely designed for ease of use, I'd like more realistic blinds but its not a must for me..

8. I'd say keep it the same, if you don't use the short range they don't land in your decoys (or out of range) and if you use it they land right where you want them. What I'm seeing now is even if you use the short range the ducks are still gonna land all over (they'll be closer to you) but realistically they should land right on top of the decoys if you did it right

[JimboCrow]

I mean I'm not sure how realistic Rougarou Bayou is in the first place.. It's a summer map in the southernmost US were you are hunting ducks that are mainly still in Canada at that time of year.

This is kind of off topic, but since you brought it up, is RB really a summer map? I mean, I know they made the 3D Summer Swamp Camo outfit for it, but when you spawn at Whispering Woods Lodge it looks like fall! The leaves are yellow, more so than green, and they're falling like crazy. I don't know how much different summer is from fall in the deep south anyway, but that map has a real fall look and feel to it. I think when they called it a "summer" map they made a mistake.

[waiora]

I thought that most these things were impossible too before I saw the new reserve and especially the way wolves act as well as the elk (fleeing erratically from the wolves). I know some of them might be a stretch but I'd settle for just improving the flight and landing mechanics if it came down to it. Personally I don't know a lot about game coding but I'm hoping with what they've done recently it would be feasible to just add a bit more erratic behavior into the formula and refine how they land. As for the new reserve I like it a lot, lots of area and a cool mix of animals. Still hoping for a reserve were we can hunt both ducks and geese though..

They could certainly do that, Look at the Ptarmigan AI, they fly many random paths and to various locations and then regroup. The AI for ducks isn't because of engine limitations, just a matter of writing the code for it

[gas56]

What I see from both sides of this discussion is that unless you recognize that flyways are different with varieties of ducks when migrating south from more Northern States & Canada. But lets talk destination like birds wintering in Louisiana. Yes you can see lots of low flying ducks,.. but you will still see high flyers that still migrate to Mexico & S. America if they do not stop over.
So both points are obvious where certain ducks migrate from, and can be said of their behavior within a region of slower migration at early fall.
As the season progresses less and less birds are flying through by Winter Time, and you have to realize the birds that do Winter over, even in colder climate Northern States.
So we look at migration destinations, is Rougarou Bayou one of these places?
If it is supposedly in Louisiana, than you would be seeing more destination ducks, If this is the place they call home for Winter.
Which it is highly unlikely the majority of waterfowl spend the Winter here on such long flyways as the Atlantic & Mississippi that birds still fly
south even further to S. America.

I myself would like to see EW produce just a Waterfowl Map and really pay attention to close detail of the way ducks act when hunted that would keep some of us more interested hunting them in this game.
There are so many good suggestions here,.. an even myself have suggested to the animations post which I think would make duck hunting in theHunter tremendously varied.
Which IMO should at least have a chance to be implemented by our suggestions.