Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

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Sherab86
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by Sherab86 »

In other words, EW give us "Call of the Wild" with less arcade playstyle (or more realistic if one prefer to look at this from such perspective ;) ) and TruRACK system! ;)
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IzDaPat
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by IzDaPat »

Sherab86 wrote: [...] But this was about devs concerns about "morality" of this setting, to express this shortly. With many of African animals being endengered, big problem of poaching in Africa, and sensitivity for the subject of international community, I can understand this explanation to some point. However we have some relatively rare animals in the game already (like bison I believe). [...]
Quite a few African 'Big Game' animals are endangered – fair enough. However, many more ARE NOT. At this point, I, personally, don't know whether or not I'd like to see an African map added to theHunter:Classic, as there are several dozen things EW would have to get right about it, and a few hundred things EW could get wrong about it – but that's beside the point I want to make here.


Reducing the issue to the questions of morality, sustainability and ethical practices in modern, real-life African hunting, and regardless of EW's economic considerations or reputational risk with regards to the game, I'd simply like to reiterate a point I have been making now and again for several years now: Africa, a continent with hundreds of vastly different biomes, has much, much more to offer than 'merely' the Big Five in a stereotypically East African savannah environment.


I sincerely hope the moderators will forgive me for quoting (and technically double-posting) parts of what I have said on the issue of (trophy) hunting in Africa more than two years ago, in more obscure threads - if only for the sake of raising awareness for the opportunities we DO have, and might be missing out on with regards to one or more Africa-inspired game environments…


IzDaPat wrote:[ ...] Using the well-established IUCN system (International Union for Conservation of Nature – an organization not exactly known to be biased towards hunting), every animal on this list falls into the categories of either 'Least Concern' (LC - stable populations, not dependent on conservation efforts), or 'Near Threatened' (NT - might be dependent on some conservation efforts in the near future - including sustainable hunting based on scientifically established population numbers).

If you oppose any and all forms of hunting - that is a perfectly fine opinion for a fact-based discussion. But if you think it is okay to kill a Moose in North-Western Canada, you must find it equally acceptable to kill a Springbok in Southern Namibia.

These animals have the very same conservation status as Whitetail Deer, Roe Deer, Red Deer and Black Bear. They are not 'Vulnerable' (VU), they are not 'Endangered' (EN), they are not 'Critically Endangered' (CR), they are not 'Extinct in the Wild' (EW).
Is the 'Vulnerable' (VU) Polar Bear anything to go by?

IzDaPat wrote: Again, all of the following African animals are either 'LC' [Least Concern] or 'NT' [Near Threatened]. Furthermore, they are all recognized as 'game / trophy animals' by major hunting associations (Rowland Ward, CIC, SCI, DSC...) - meaning there is a system for scoring their trophies [...and, in the vast majority of cases, a scientifically supervised programme to monitor population dynamics...]. If we decided to include small predators (e.g. Jackals), animals without a scoring system (e.g. certain subspecies of Giraffes that are still very abundant), rodents, all sorts of birds, and maybe even a few animals that undeniably are classified 'Vulnerable' (VU), but are still around thanks to the fact that private land owners protect their entire population so they can offer a mature male trophy animal for hunting once in a while - then this list would easily exceed 250 species of African animals that could be hunted ethically.

90-250 species of small and large African animals we shouldn't have to feel any compunction about hunting, especially in a video game!!! Including the Cape Buffalo as a worthy representative of the Big Five.

IzDaPat wrote:Nothing on this list to strike a hunter's fancy?


- Common Impala - LC - aepyceros melampus melampus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impala
- Coke's Hartebeest - LC - alcelaphus buselaphus cokii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke%27s_hartebeest
- Western Hartebeest - NT - alcelaphus buselaphus major - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_hartebeest
- Red Hartebeest - LC - alcelaphus buselaphus caama - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hartebeest
- Lichtenstein's Hartebeest - LC - alcelaphus lichtensteinii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenst ... hartebeest
- Angolan Springbok - LC - antidorcas marsupialis angolensis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springbok
- Kalahari Springbok - LC - antidorcas marsupialis hofmeyeri - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springbok
- Southern Springbok - LC - antidorcas marsupialis marsupialis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springbok
- Caracal - LC - caracal caracal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracal
- Peter's Duiker - LC - cephalophus callipygus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peters%27s_duiker
- Bay Duiker - LC - cephalophus dorsalis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_duiker
- Harvey's Duiker - LC - cephalophus harveyi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey%27s_duiker
- White-Bellied Duiker - LC - cephalophus leucogaster - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-bellied_duiker
- Red Forest Duiker - LC - cephalophus natalensis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_forest_duiker
- Black Duiker - LC - cephalophus niger - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_duiker
- Black-Fronted Duiker - LC - cephalophus nigrifrons - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-fronted_duiker
- Ogilby's Duiker - LC - cephalophus ogilbyi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogilby%27s_duiker
- Red-Flanked Duiker - LC - cephalophus rufilatus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-flanked_duiker
- Yellow-Backed Duiker - LC - cephalophus silvicultor - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow-backed_duiker
- Topi - LC - damaliscus lunatus jimela - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topi
- Black Wildebeest - LC - connochaetes gnou - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_wildebeest
- White-Bearded Wildebeest - NT - connochaetes taurinus albojubatus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wildebeest
- Blue Wildebeest - LC - connochaetes taurinus taurinus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wildebeest
- Nile Crocodile - LC - crocodylus niloticus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_crocodile
- Tsessebe - LC - damaliscus lunatus lunatus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_tsessebe
- Blesbok - LC - damaliscus pygargus phillipsi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blesbok
- Bontebok - LC - damaliscus pygargus pygargus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bontebok
- Plains Zebra - LC - equus quagga - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plains_zebra
- Mongalla Gazelle - LC - eudorcas albonotata - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongalla_gazelle
- Thomson's Gazelle - NT - eudorcas thomsonii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomson%27s_gazelle
- Roan Antelope - LC - hippotragus equinus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roan_antelope
- Black Sable Antelope - LC - hippotragus niger niger - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_antelope
- Eastern Sable Antelope - LC - hippotragus niger roosevelti - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_antelope
- Water Chevrotain - LC - hyemoschus aquaticus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_chevrotain
- Giant Forest Hog - LC - hylochoerus meinertzhageni - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_forest_hog
- Defassa Waterbuck - LC - kobus ellipsiprymnus defassa - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterbuck
- Common Waterbuck - LC - kobus ellipsiprymnus ellipsiprymnus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterbuck
- White-Eared Kob - LC - kobus kob leucotis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kob
- Ugandan Kob - LC - kobus kob thomasi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugandan_kob
- Kafue Flats Lechwe - LC - kobus leche kafuensis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechwe
- Red Lechwe - LC - kobus leche leche - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechwe
- Puku - NT - kobus vardonii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puku
- Serval - LC - leptailurus serval - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serval
- Northern Gerenuk - NT - litocranius walleri sclateri - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerenuk
- Southern Gerenuk - NT - litocranius walleri walleri - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerenuk
- Günther's Dik-Dik - LC - madoqua guentheri - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther%27s_dik-dik
- Kirk's Dik-Dik - LC - madoqua kirkii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk%27s_dik-dik
- Salt's Dik-Dik - LC - madoqua saltiana - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt%27s_dik-dik
- Bright's Gazelle - LC - nanger granti brighti - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant%27s_gazelle
- Southern Grant's Gazelle - LC - nanger granti granti - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant%27s_gazelle
- Northern Grant's Gazelle - LC - nanger granti lacuum - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant%27s_gazelle
- Peter's Gazelle - LC - nanger granti petersi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant%27s_gazelle
- Robert's Gazelle - LC - nanger granti robertsi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant%27s_gazelle
- Bates' Pygmy Antelope - LC - neotragus batesi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bates%27s_pygmy_antelope
- Suni - LC - neotragus moschatus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suni
- Royal Antelope - LC - neotragus pygmaeus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_antelope
- Klipspringer - LC - oreotragus oreotragus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klipspringer
- Oribi - LC - ourebia ourebi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oribi
- East African Oryx - NT - oryx beisa beisa - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_oryx
- Gemsbok - LC - oryx gazella - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemsbok
- Common Warthog - LC - phacochoerus africanus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_warthog
- Desert Warthog - LC - phacochoerus aethiopicus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_warthog
- Maxwell's Duiker - LC - philantomba maxwellii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_duiker
- Grey Rhebok - LC - palea capreolus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_rhebok
- Blue Duiker - LC - philantomba monticola - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_duiker
- Bush Pig - LC - potamochoerus larvatus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushpig
- Red River Hog - LC - potamochoerus porcus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_river_hog
- Steenbok - LC - raphicerus campestris - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steenbok
- Cape Grysbok - LC - raphicerus melanotis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_grysbok
- Sharpe's Grysbok - LC - raphicerus sharpei - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpe%27s_grysbok
- Common Reedbuck - LC - redunca arundium - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_reedbuck
- Mountain Reedbuck - LC - redunca fulvorufula - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_reedbuck
- Bohor Reedbuck - LC - redunca redunca - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohor_reedbuck
- Common Duiker - LC - sylvicapra grimmia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_duiker
- Nile Buffalo - LC - syncerus caffer aequinoctialis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_buffalo
- Cape Buffalo - LC - syncerus caffer caffer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_buffalo
- African Forest Buffalo - LC - syncerus caffer nanus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_forest_buffalo
- Western Giant Eland - LC - taurotragus derbianus derbianus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_eland
- Eastern Giant Eland - LC - taurotragus derbianus gigas - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_eland
- Livingstone's Eland - LC - taurotragus oryx livingstonii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_eland
- Common Eland - LC - taurotragus oryx oryx - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_eland
- Patterson's Eland - LC - taurotragus oryx pattersonianus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_eland
- Western Bongo Antelope - NT - tragelaphus eurycerus eurycerus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bongo_(antelope)
- Nyala - LC - tragelaphus angasii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyala
- Lesser Kudu - NT - tragelaphus imberbis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_kudu
- Kewel (Harnessed Bushbuck ssp.) - LC - tragelaphus scriptus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A9wel
- East African Sitatunga - LC - tragelaphus spekii spekii - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitatunga
- Forest Sitatunga - LC - tragelaphus spekii gratus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitatunga
- Zambezi Sitatunga - LC - tragelaphus spekii selousi - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitatunga
- Southern Greater Kudu - LC - tragelaphus strepsiceros strepsiceros - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_kudu
- East African Greater Kudu - LC - tragelaphus strepsiceros chora - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_kudu
- Imbabala (Bushbuck ssp.) - LC - tragelaphus sylvaticus - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushbuck
I'll leave this list and my thoughts up for debate and critique, and sign off by - again - stating:
IzDaPat wrote: [...] one more thing to add, even though it has been said a thousand times: THIS. IS. JUST. A. GAME.


Happy Hunting! ;)
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by Ravenousfox »

I'm sure the African map has been the top requested map back in 2010 and onward? :lol:
I have a feeling as more time goes on the African map expectations are going to be so high that many will probably be unhappy with the map IF it comes out in the future.
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by ArwenerI »

I dont like Australian jungle, i think its going to be another boring empty untested reserve ( like TBT). I did a reserch in the internet about australian tropical forest wildlife and i saw that it consists of small game animals, i wanted to get my 45-70 and have some fun but its not going to happen.Who like small game? :D . We will keep dreaming of Africa.
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by InvisibleFlame9 »

Knut wrote:
Sherab86 wrote:With many of African animals being endengered, big problem of poaching in Africa, and sensitivity for the subject of international community, I can understand this explanation to some point. However we have some relatively rare animals in the game already (like bison I believe). But I suppose they do not bring up such hot debates, as african poachers, ivory, rhinos horns and so on.
This just goes to show how the Western world has an altered morality when viewing Africa then when viewing itself.
That's a really good point knut! And I agree.

African animals would make a great addition and look great in the trophy lodge. The way I see it is that 'hunting' is a controversial subject in general and since this is a 'game' about hunting it's not immoral to include an endangered species. It would be interesting to be able to at least hunt lions and other African game.
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Sherab86
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by Sherab86 »

IzDaPat wrote:Reducing the issue to the questions of morality, sustainability and ethical practices in modern, real-life African hunting, and regardless of EW's economic considerations or reputational risk with regards to the game, I'd simply like to reiterate a point I have been making now and again for several years now: Africa, a continent with hundreds of vastly different biomes, has much, much more to offer than 'merely' the Big Five in a stereotypically East African savannah environment.
You are right of course, but this stereotypical savannah and Big Five are something that people intuitively think of, when proposing an African map, I suppose. ;)

And "morality" reasoning do not come from me, but was quoted from official statement of devs in some other thread I was refering to.
ArwenerI wrote:Who like small game? :D .
I do. :P And this was a kind of discovery to me, because earlier I wasn't interested in hunting predators as such, but now I'm very happy with every ocasional red fox, coyote or lynx ;) And if you refer to traditional understanding of "small game" - meaning birds and rabbits, then I do agree to some point - I still like to relax with hunting pheasants or ptarmigans, but I usualy go for "big game".
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by D3AKUs »

ArwenerI wrote:I dont like Australian jungle, i think its going to be another boring empty untested reserve ( like TBT). I did a reserch in the internet about australian tropical forest wildlife and i saw that it consists of small game animals, i wanted to get my 45-70 and have some fun but its not going to happen.Who like small game? :D . We will keep dreaming of Africa.
Timbergold has its flaws in some areas but the map is far away from being empty lol
At this point i would even say Timbergold is by far one of the easiest maps when it comes to killing good numbers of animals or even finding really big trophys. I have shot so many monster 200+ even 220+ Muledeer there that i can fill at least 3 Lodges worth of spots with them when i hunted TGT nearly exclusively for weeks a few month ago.

And they said inspired by australian jungle/rainforest nothing more. This will probably include a good amount of different areas like ofc dense forest areas but i am 100% sure there will be enough open spots or even swamp areas and other stuff around waterholes that offer a good variety of hunting options like pretty much every reserve did so far in terms of terrain variations.
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ArwenerI
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by ArwenerI »

Timbergold has its flaws in some areas but the map is far away from being empty lol
At this point i would even say Timbergold is by far one of the easiest maps when it comes to killing good numbers of animals or even finding really big trophys. I have shot so many monster 200+ even 220+ Muledeer there that i can fill at least 3 Lodges worth of spots with them when i hunted TGT nearly exclusively for weeks a few month ago.
Finding monsters has nothing do with a map being empty considering its size.Hmmm, good mumber of animals in 4h+(not to mention distance travelled) comparing to any other map where you can get 30 animals in 1-1,5 hour,i dont think so.I mean walking and shooting , not bowhunt. Hope they dont the same mistake or reduce population a week after release.
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by Gewehrwolf »

Hi,
Sherab86 wrote:But this was about devs concerns about "morality" of this setting, to express this shortly.
Would you please submit a link to an official statement saying this? Because as far as I remember, this was only brought into the discussion by a couple of users.
When going on and on about ethical aspects of hunting endangered species, one should remember what important role African hunting reserves play in preserving these animals IRL. Because the animals 'free' to shoot are carefully selected after thoroughly examining the population. And mostly male individuals are taken out, again well chosen. People coming for Safaris are charged enormous fees for every single shot animal and a large part of this goes into cherishing animals and reserves. You can have a look at an example here, listing of prices starts on page 3 :o

http://blaser-safaris.com/wp-content/up ... a-2017.pdf

Furthermore, they keep poachers away.
So this is not a valid argument, and as long I don't read different proof, I won't believe it's considered by Devs. If it was, there were no polar bears.
baloo.the.dog wrote:and we pretty much created 6 new species for Whiterime Ridge.
No, They didn't. I took a break from the game, but as far as I've read, Dall Sheep were introduced later. So the only real new 'species' on release was the bison as the first representive of the bovine class in the game. Deer, hares, bears, moose, foxes : They've all been there before. Its not a big step from a whitetail to a sittka dear by the means of programming. Same applies to them all, it's basically a reskin and maybe some minor changes in behaviour. But looking at the bovine, feline and goat/species that were introduced lately, this is a way larger step.

And looking at African game, it would be a large amount of new animal classes, that would have to be introduced. But the fact that bovine and feline species were released already gives me hope that we will see it one day. Although I still believe it will be more than just one map. More like a big expansion or a game on it's own.

Don't get me wrong, I was hoping for an African reserve as well and I'm kinda dissapointed it doesn't come out. But Australia can be nice and interesting, too. There were some clues there would be water buffalo, and maybe there's hope for some small varmint species in the tropical forest.
By the way, IRL hunters from all around the world spend a lot of hard money on an opportunity to hunt there, so it can't be that bad. Let's just wait and see.

Cheers,
Wehrwolf.
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Re: Africa vs. Aussie jungle, why not Africa?

Post by Mills »

I agree that the "ethical" argument for Africa has been overstated. There are plenty of game animals in Africa to hunt where so called "ethics" do not come into play. After all, this is just a game. I don't see Greenpeace going bonkers over the fact that we can hunt polar bears and bison to our hearts content. Personally, if Africa were to ever make it into the game, I would like to be able to hunt some of the big 5. Would I want to kill a lion in real life? Absolutely not! Would I like to hunt lions in a game!? HECK YEAH I WOULD!! Think how awesome that would look in one of the trophy lodges.
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