More "track types" for antlered animals

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Elrique64
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More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by Elrique64 »

From Wikipedia:
Antlers are extensions of an animal's skull found in members of the deer family. They are true bone and are a single structure. They are generally found only on males, with the exception of the caribou.[1] Antlers are shed and regrown each year and function primarily as objects of sexual attraction and as weapons in fights between males for control of harems.
When antlers are regrown, they are covered in a soft velvety fur during the entire growing process. When they have reached their largest size of the year, they start to "itch" the buck, causing him to want to "scratch" at them. Deer use trees to "rub" the velvet off and prepare them for their primary purpose... Sparring with other bucks in the area to determine breeding priority with the local does. They use trees to rub this velvet off. Generally the larger the buck's antlers, the larger the tree that is used to rub off the velvet. Small bucks will usually use brush or small treelings for their rubs, while the larger ones will use trees up to 3" or 4" in diameter. Generally all bucks will use trees that are "aromatic" as they want to add that scent to their own. You can find the more dominant bucks in a given area by finding the trees he has used to rub off his velvet. All members of the deer family in NA exhibit this behavior, from Whitetail to Moose. I would guess that other deer in other areas do the same to one extent to another.

Bucks will also create scrapes. A scrape is a spot near a trail where a buck will leave a couple of different "calling cards" of his presence. One of these calling cards is the scent from his forehead glands on a broke or low hanging branch. He also clears off the ground under this branch, removing all of the dead leaves and grass. This leaves a patch of bare ground. Then the buck will "squat" over this bare ground and pee on his legs. His urine passes across the tarsal glands on his legs, combining the two scents (and pheromones) leaving it on the bare patch of ground he created. The more dominant bucks in a given area will create a larger patch of cleared ground. This appears to be mostly a Whitetail habit, although Blacktails do this to some extent as well, with modifications. Mulies have a much broader home range, and while they may make scrapes, these are much harder for a hunter to find.

Elk and Moose tend to use vocalizations to advertise their presence in an area more than their smaller cousins. Elk scrapes are extremely hard to find, but they can be found when trailing a bull. They tend to make these as they walk. They will splay out their front legs and pee on their legs, just as deer do. but they don't tear up a patch of ground to make them. I honestly don't know if moose make scrapes like their smaller cousins do. You would have to ask some of the more die-hard real life moose hunters in the community.

These are basically sign posts. They advertise the buck is in the area, and what his health condition is. This advertising marks the territory as "his" so it warns off the smaller bucks of an area. It also can tell the does in the area where they can find the bigger males when they come into cycle.

Bucks have a "home range" meaning they have an area they are generally associated to. So they will usually follow a route in their given range. They will visit the rubs several times through the rubbing season, as they still itch, and want some relief. Scrapes are something they will visit throughout the majority of the breeding season. And a dominant buck can have several of these scrapes in his home range.

I don't know if the mechanics of the game give a certain deer a "home range" or not. If it does, the idea of rubs and scrapes could be easy to incorporate, giving the hunter clues about the bucks in an area, over the clues we already get through the Hunter Mate. (Weight, trophy size, etc.) With practice, finding a rub or scrape can actually pinpoint a home range for a given deer.

Anyway, in a nutshell, these are the ideas I have for other tracks for the deer family. They could be used to help find the larger, more dominant bucks or bulls during your hunt, if they were in game.
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Wadesbreath
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by Wadesbreath »

This would be a great game mechanic and I'm in shock that this forum post doesn't have more comments.
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Sherab86
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by Sherab86 »

While idea in general is nice, and I like it, there are some "but" to it. ;)

All bucks/stags/bulls in the game are modeled in rut period, with fully grown antlers, velvet-free. Of course trees still could held a "marks" of being used for scratching, but this would make sense if there would be some areas associated to each buck, as stated in description. We have in game "attraction zones" animals travel to, but they seems to be rather generic, and random. I mean, after animal fed in one place, it can probably decide to travel to sleep to the other end of a map, even if proper places could be much closer. This is probably exageration, but my point is, that there are no territhories of individual specimens.

There is no way to simulate (in immersive, convincing way) olfactory tracks, of course. But I guess that visual signs of it, as described by OP, could be implemented. :)

What could be considered as a drawback, from purely gameplay perspective, is that you could determine that you are following a buck without leveling your skills high enough to read this info from tracks, for example. But I think this is a minor issue. ;)
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by gas56 »

Everything is made for a one day hunt in this game, so putting in intricacies of deer behavior wouldn't help you much in a 1 day hunting trip.
So let me explain it better so you can gain some insight into modern deer observance.
If a buck scratches its head in one place it will not be there on the next hunt, because bucks don't have the same itching in the same place because of all the different ticks they pick up over their range. Bucks also paw big cleared circles to simulate the spots in which they travel in the woods so they don't get lost,.. this is kinda like advertising to the does that this is me and I've been here so if you come by this way pee on my mark so I can smell that you're not lost either so they can eventually be together to eat at the local food source.
Bucks will also scratch bark off of trees with their antlers to let other deer know that this tree is a good way to the water hole and feeding ground, and they also shake bushes to ring the dinner bell for all the other deer to hear when the coast is clear from predators (like man) to go and eat the farmers crops.
The Rut is when Bucks have been having a bad time finding good feeding spots, and the does have likely already been eating at them because you see the bucks following the does to the good
feeding spots when they are down in a rut.
I guess what I am trying to say is this is a basic hunting game and its not like nobody has ever posted about this a lot before.
It's not like hunters know everything I know about deer like I mentioned above,.. but it has taken years of experience to learn all of that and not from the internet,...
Have you ever seen a deer sneeze when its bedding in the high weeds and you are close enough to hear it?
Deer get allergies too, even hay fever........it's a fact.......... and I've heard them numerous times when I'm getting close to deer :D
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by Elrique64 »

gas56 wrote:Everything is made for a one day hunt in this game, so putting in intricacies of deer behavior wouldn't help you much in a 1 day hunting trip.
So let me explain it better so you can gain some insight into modern deer observance.
If a buck scratches its head in one place it will not be there on the next hunt, because bucks don't have the same itching in the same place because of all the different ticks they pick up over their range.
The "Rubs" are created because the velvet covering the fully grown, or nearly grown antlers is dying, causing it to start to itch. It's dying due to reduced blood flow. Blood flow is reduced because the bold is needed elsewhere in the Buck's body and those vessels constrict, reducing flow, and thereby causing the itch. This "itch" isn't dealt with in a single pass, because, well, there's a fair amount of velvet that needs to be shed by any single buck, regardless of size. The size of the tree the buck uses to rub his antlers is one factor in the size of the individual buck. A larger buck is going to use a larger tree, because he has the reach to get his antlers around the tree. Aromatic trees are usually used because the buck has that smell hanging on top of his head, and he wants to add this to his own smell. Think cologne.
gas56 wrote:Bucks also paw big cleared circles to simulate the spots in which they travel in the woods so they don't get lost,.. this is kinda like advertising to the does that this is me and I've been here so if you come by this way pee on my mark so I can smell that you're not lost either so they can eventually be together to eat at the local food source.
Another complete falsehood. Scrapes are marking posts a buck makes to mark his territory, advertise his health and suitability to breed, tells any passing does if he is disease and parasite free. See, he pees on these scrapes, over his tarsal glands. (Glands located inside the knee joints of the hind legs.) These tarsal glands have a set of pheromones that advertise a few things about the buck, as well as his urine does... In other words, he's marking his spot and making sure everyone in the neighborhood knows he's around. Small bucks will make them, usually around a bigger buck's scrape. When the bigger buck finds these calling cards left by the younger and smaller ones, he usually urinates over his tarsals again on these smaller scrapes, effectively eradicating the smaller bucks calling card with his own.
gas56 wrote:Bucks will also scratch bark off of trees with their antlers to let other deer know that this tree is a good way to the water hole and feeding ground, and they also shake bushes to ring the dinner bell for all the other deer to hear when the coast is clear from predators (like man) to go and eat the farmers crops.
I already discussed this above, but have only one more thing to say on rubs. Bucks make them as they travel, and as the itching gets out of hand. Yeah, they are going to be on the way to or from feed areas, or bedding or drinking areas as well. Since the buck is moving through these areas and needs to scratch an itch. Bushes are sometimes added to the scratching for the aromatic characteristics as stated above.

gas56 wrote:The Rut is when Bucks have been having a bad time finding good feeding spots, and the does have likely already been eating at them because you see the bucks following the does to the good
feeding spots when they are down in a rut.
the "Rut" is the breeding time. Does come into heat, and they release pheromones in their urine. (Think of it something like a menstrual cycle in humans.) When a doe is in heat bucks forget everything. Safety, security, territory, everything, to follow a doe in heat. (I've seen 3 fairly large bucks run out onto the road in front of a semi, hot on the heels of a doe in heat. All three ran headlong into the semi and died. They had their noses in the air and weren't paying attention to anything else but the little head between their legs, and not the ones under the antlers.) I've even seen bucks come up to a doe decoy with doe urine sprayed on it, trying to hump it. (Look around on YouTube, I'm sure you can probably find a video or two of this.) For instance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNMA7iWzFg4
gas56 wrote:I guess what I am trying to say is this is a basic hunting game and its not like nobody has ever posted about this a lot before.
It's not like hunters know everything I know about deer like I mentioned above,.. but it has taken years of experience to learn all of that and not from the internet,...
Have you ever seen a deer sneeze when its bedding in the high weeds and you are close enough to hear it?

Deer get allergies too, even hay fever........it's a fact.......... and I've heard them numerous times when I'm getting close to deer :D
That "sneeze" as you call it, is likely a vocalization, one of the several hundred that have been identified by researchers and hunters alike. Or I should say hunters that have spent some time critically observing. It's usually used to alert the other deer nearby of a potential threat, so get your head out of the dirt and look around a bit. The vocalization changes a bit if the threat is audible, olfactory or visual. The vocalization identifies the observed type of threat, posture and stance determine direction and immediacy. Just as dogs, prarrie dogs and gophers, wolves and other animals have different calls, deer do too. And they are a lot more vocal than ever thought before the past 10 or 15 years.

If you are hearing the deer "sneeze" you screwed the pooch somehow, and they know you are around. Especially if you hear it more than once from the same animal or group of animals in a given day. GL getting anything in that herd on that hunt!

So, IMNSHO this entire post of yours is extremely misinformed. I've hunted for over 40 years and have personally observed a lot of the phenomena above. As well as read more than a few books and articles on the topics.
It's not like hunters know everything I know about deer like I mentioned above,.. but it has taken years of experience to learn all of that and not from the internet,...
IMO you don't really know much about hunting WT's at all, after reading this nonsense.

The only thing from this post I can take away positively is this: [/quote="gas56"]Everything is made for a one day hunt in this game, so putting in intricacies of deer behavior wouldn't help you much in a 1 day hunting trip.[/quote] This is the only statement of any value in the entire reply. Everything else is either made up or folk lore from 100 or more years ago.

All of the animals in the game are spwned at the session start. None of them persist from one session to the next. So finding a big buck is as much a factor of luck as it is a factor of knowing the habits and how to play the game. Adding in elements of realism such as scrapes and rubs would be pointless as the session ends, the entire population of the map is erased. Nuff said. the rest of your post is, well, garbage, IMO.
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by walt133 »

This^ It is a game, and it will only get so good. Also I think someone said something about the EW engine not being able to support rubs and scrapes. Maybe Tang, or David can help me recall, if that is accurate. Also EW can't make it so you can go on a week long(in game) hunting trip, so why would it be useful. The other thing is when I am virtual hunting I am not looking to try to find a monster buck for a week. I just want to go on for a couple of hours and find some nice animals without getting to in depth with scrapes , rubs, licking branches etc.... Maybe others feel different.
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by gas56 »

Elrique64 wrote:So, IMNSHO this entire post of yours is extremely misinformed. I've hunted for over 40 years and have personally observed a lot of the phenomena above. As well as read more than a few books and articles on the topics.
It's not like hunters know everything I know about deer like I mentioned above,.. but it has taken years of experience to learn all of that and not from the internet,...
IMO you don't really know much about hunting WT's at all, after reading this nonsense.

The only thing from this post I can take away positively is this: [/quote="gas56"]Everything is made for a one day hunt in this game, so putting in intricacies of deer behavior wouldn't help you much in a 1 day hunting trip.
Elrique64 wrote:This is the only statement of any value in the entire reply. Everything else is either made up or folk lore from 100 or more years ago.
All of the animals in the game are spwned at the session start. None of them persist from one session to the next. So finding a big buck is as much a factor of luck as it is a factor of knowing the habits and how to play the game. Adding in elements of realism such as scrapes and rubs would be pointless as the session ends, the entire population of the map is erased. Nuff said. the rest of your post is, well, garbage, IMO.
What? My gran-pappy told me all about these deer facts and he'd killed lots of them deer with accidental dynamite charges in the coalmines of Kentucky,(don't tell no one),..
so what you are saying that all of this is made up??? I'm thunderstruck to hear this. It sounds like you are well informed on deer behavior wherever you learned about it,..
you must be a professor in bi-pedalcolonygisticallistic knowledge. I never went to high-school myself and thought I knew exactly what I was talking about...
But now that you've explained it a whole bunch better you may have something about it there,...
I have to phone my uncle to see what he thinks about it?
He's a beet farmer from Indiana and tells me about all the deer in his crop field and how they react to tractor sounds but it doesn't bother deer much as far as he knows,..
but maybe he knows some more on the subject,.. so keep in touch and I'll find out more information on tractors from him.
I was kind of sad you thought this was garbage,.. no one ever told me that before,...
but don't worry I will get back to you as soon as I can, once I find out if your findings are documented knowledge,...
so I have to go and read some more out of the "Star & Universe, & horoscopes Magazine" to correlate my new data that you just revealed to everyone.
But first I have to finish reading the article "How my sister stayed with Sasquatch for 10 years" than I'll get right to it!
So you see I read a lot too!
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by Sherab86 »

Take it easy, Gas. I know Elrique64 was maybe a little bit rude to call your knowledge and experience by the name of "garbage". But from what I know, mostly as a theorethician (but not entirely - I "hunt" sometimes with my digital camera), he was generaly right.

Personally, I do not neglect your experiences. At least, as we consider them as observations only. Problem started, when you've begin to "explain" those observations. I can certainly believe your grand-pa, uncle or whoever else, could passed on you those knowledge. And this can be quite useful when you hunt in a field, indeed. But it doesn't seems to have much in common with what is current scientiffic knowledge, simply.

For me, same goes with many hunter's revelations about "drop in tracks" shots. I can certainly believe them, when they say they did it more then several times. But I have to admitt, that when they start to speak of "knock down power", "energy transfer", etc. as a cause of their success, I'm starting to be nervous. ;)

It seems, that pure field-observations, while certainly useful for hunting purposes (I would never expect myself to approach animal with same success as you, or any other IRL hunter), dosn't necessery mean, that what is going on under the hood was realy understood as well.

But I believe you in one point for sure - I'm preety sure they can have sneeze from time to time. ;)
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by Fletchette »

Sherab86 wrote:Take it easy, Gas. I know Elrique64 was maybe a little bit rude to call your knowledge and experience by the name of "garbage". But from what I know, mostly as a theorethician (but not entirely - I "hunt" sometimes with my digital camera), he was generaly right.

Personally, I do not neglect your experiences. At least, as we consider them as observations only. Problem started, when you've begin to "explain" those observations. I can certainly believe your grand-pa, uncle or whoever else, could passed on you those knowledge. And this can be quite useful when you hunt in a field, indeed. But it doesn't seems to have much in common with what is current scientiffic knowledge, simply.

For me, same goes with many hunter's revelations about "drop in tracks" shots. I can certainly believe them, when they say they did it more then several times. But I have to admitt, that when they start to speak of "knock down power", "energy transfer", etc. as a cause of their success, I'm starting to be nervous. ;)

It seems, that pure field-observations, while certainly useful for hunting purposes (I would never expect myself to approach animal with same success as you, or any other IRL hunter), dosn't necessery mean, that what is going on under the hood was realy understood as well.

But I believe you in one point for sure - I'm preety sure they can have sneeze from time to time. ;)
I assumed Gas was joking, since everything he said about IRL deer behavior was ridiculous....
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Re: More "track types" for antlered animals

Post by gas56 »

Fletchette wrote:
Sherab86 wrote:Take it easy, Gas. I know Elrique64 was maybe a little bit rude to call your knowledge and experience by the name of "garbage". But from what I know, mostly as a theorethician (but not entirely - I "hunt" sometimes with my digital camera), he was generaly right.

Personally, I do not neglect your experiences. At least, as we consider them as observations only. Problem started, when you've begin to "explain" those observations. I can certainly believe your grand-pa, uncle or whoever else, could passed on you those knowledge. And this can be quite useful when you hunt in a field, indeed. But it doesn't seems to have much in common with what is current scientiffic knowledge, simply.

For me, same goes with many hunter's revelations about "drop in tracks" shots. I can certainly believe them, when they say they did it more then several times. But I have to admitt, that when they start to speak of "knock down power", "energy transfer", etc. as a cause of their success, I'm starting to be nervous. ;)

It seems, that pure field-observations, while certainly useful for hunting purposes (I would never expect myself to approach animal with same success as you, or any other IRL hunter), dosn't necessery mean, that what is going on under the hood was realy understood as well.

But I believe you in one point for sure - I'm preety sure they can have sneeze from time to time. ;)
I assumed Gas was joking, since everything he said about IRL deer behavior was ridiculous....
What??? haven't you heard a deer sneeze.............................. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry Elrique64 & Sherab86,.. yesterday I just couldn't help myself that I was just in such a joking mood.
but I figured you would know that I was joking, ridiculously joking........... :lol:
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